Problems with Hornby Select

The remarks made above are unsupported and so care should be taken before making such remarks in a public forum.

Hornby state this about the Elite and Select units:-

QUOTE Designed to be NMRA compatible

The Hornby 'Elite' supports RailCom ID detection® Lenz Syztems

Both the 'Select' and 'Elite' support 14, 28 and 128 Speed steps

Xpress Net socket for layout development

A google search on DCC NMRA compatible reveals 13500 results.

A google search on DCC NMRA compliant reveals 500 results.

Compatible seems to be the more commonly used word within the industry by a big margin.

These are the facts.

Tony's Trains states that QUOTE Today's NMRA DCC Standard provides a framework for interoperability without precluding manufacturer innovation

Hornby have worked directly with Lenz since the inception of the Hornby project.

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 24 Nov 2006, 08:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Now I am not accusing anybody here of this but lets step back and judge what we say and how it may appear to the beginner or casual hobbyist honestly.

well im new to the forum, and very interested in going digital, and TBH reading tho all this, its king of put my off as thinga have been said that it dont work right yet, and i dont want to be blowing £££££ away if it dont work.
im not looking for full on fully automatic points signals yet, all i want to be able to do, is run a double headed train and maybe couple up with a second engine to take carrages away with out having to isolate trach everywhere.

i have read thro the DCC part on the hornby site, and reading that its all prity simple, the only problem i can see, is the compatability between control and decoder. and to get round this, i take it you stay with just the one make, be it Hornby or not. Im sure my loco`s are not DCC ready, so they will all need hard wiring in anyway, so i dont have to worrying about the connector plug.

Anyway, i wasn`t going to reply as it all seemed to be arguments about this and that which TBH i didn`t have a clue about but when that comment was made above, i thought i would.

QUOTE i have read thro the DCC part on the hornby site, and reading that its all prity simple, the only problem i can see, is the compatability between control and decoder. and to get round this, i take it you stay with just the one make, be it Hornby or not. unsure.gif Im sure my loco`s are not DCC ready, so they will all need hard wiring in anyway, so i dont have to worrying about the connector plug.

Yes there are a lot of loco's out there without a DCC plug. Hard-wiring is frequently the only option, in some instances even if the loco has a plug there is insufficient space for a decoder. I've also come across some examples of faulty dcc plugs, the Heljan 47 used to be particularly bad, with shorts on the under side of the plug. There are examples with both Hornby and Bachmann where I've found faulty plugs. The worst offender is too much solder on the rear of the plug. Happily these problems seem to have been mainly resolved.

The most important thing is to check your installation in all situations , and if your hard wiring use shrink tube. I often stay with one type of decoder for a long period, this allows me to understand the characteristics of a decoder and the best way of setting it up.

With regard to the Hornby system, particularly the Elite, I would wait for a review, to reveal any problems before plunging in with a purchase. Potentially this is a very good "El Cheapo System", but there have been concerns about compatibility. These questions should be resolved within weeks once the first sets hit the market
so you best approach as always is just a little caution. Of course for just a little more cash you could purchase a decent DCC system and avoid these potential problems. Any of the specialist DCC companies have these:
Digitrax , NCE, Lenz , and even the Prodigy
At least then you would be buying a tried and tested system with robust support, and a good knowledge base.

To repeat Hornby say this about their Digital products:-

QUOTE Designed to be NMRA compatible

The Hornby 'Elite' supports RailCom ID detection® Lenz Syztems

Both the 'Select' and 'Elite' support 14, 28 and 128 Speed steps

Xpress Net socket for layout development

Can anybody say precisely why they consider Hornby Digital to not be designed to a "standard" when the above statement is made by Hornby?

And please don't refer to the email at the start of this topic. It has yet to be determined what the precise cause of that issue is and has nothing at all to do with the Hornby Digital user requirement specification.

Happy modelling
Gary

>Can anybody say precisely why they consider Hornby Digital to not be designed to a "standard" when the above statement is made by Hornby?

All MMaD said was "concerns about compatibility", he didn't say it was not designed to be compatible. You are confusing two issues here - one is a system that can never be compatible, the other a version 1.0 that is about to be subject to a much larger variety of decoders and setups than it is possible to test in the confines of the design house and QA at the factory.

If we knew that Hornby had a controller software field upgrade plan in place, then we could all be confident that even if problems are discovered then they can be sorted out on the units already sold. The ECoS is already on version 1.01 and they have a lot more experience in DCC than Hornby.

I don't think anybody is doubting Hornby's intent; it's just that it is difficult for any manufacturer to get version 1.0 exactly right.

David

I offer balance given that there can be extreme views expressed at times. This can sometimes be perceived as biase. Remember I did not start this Hornby thread and I actually start very few Hornby threads!

QUOTE All MMaD said was "concerns about compatibility", he didn't say it was not designed to be compatible.

Would MMaD then please confirm that he does absolutely agree that Hornby have the intent based on the specification included with Hornby marketing material for Hornby Digital to be "compatible"?

This would clear up a lot of confusion around the language used. Forget 2/4 digit addressing and so on and so forth. This is not written into any standard. Just focus on compatibility.

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is required. A "Yes" answer will be accompanied by a big Mexican Wave!

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE The Hornby Select is DCC COMPATIBLE in that it will run others decoders, for example (have tried it, and it will - TCS and NCE) but it does not COMPLY with the relevant standards.

Which standards and how does it not?

I asked the question earlier and nobody has yet come up with a specific answer. Why cannot somebody simply point to the specific NMRA standard that is not complied with.

I am not a techie but I do like to see the technical facts presented. At this time we keep getting a moral argument which for me and others like me is not an acceptable answer.

It suggests that there is not actually a technical answer to give.

This is a wholly unacceptable situation given the recent discussion.

How do neutral observers feel about this?

Confused?

Exactly.

Happy modelling
Gary

As someone who is considering whether the Hornby Elite might be a possible option for the future, I've read all this and don't feel the discussion has reached a satisfactory point

To say that a new DCC system doesn't meet NMRA standards and therefore isn't compatible witrh the rest of DCC is about as serious a criticism as can be offered. A number of people have been speculatingthat the Hornby system won't work with other DCC , at least on here, for several months , well in advance of the system being available and therefore without any hard evidence to support the speculation.

There now appears to be an attempt to give as much publicity as possible, on various forums, to the Adrian Hall email suggestion that the Hornby Select is somehow not compatible with DCC . This seems to be on an "unspecified third parties have said " basis , but the people making the statement haven't actually seen a Hornby Select or decoder for themselves - "QUOTE Please if anybody has any experience with the Select unit I would welcome feedback and comments on the above.

I don't see this discussion can go anywhere meaningful until we have some first hand reports from people who have actually used the Hornby Select , and/or the new Hornby decoder , telling us exactly what they have and haven't been able to do

In the case of the email MMD has reposted, the statement that "we have been notified" TCS decoders woould not be recognised by the Select is contradicted by IKB47484's first hand statement that he has got TCS (and Lenz) decoders to work with the Select . Of course we don't know which TCS decoders were involved in each case. Adrian Hall's leap from "someone tells me there are problems recognising TCS decoders" to "the Hornby Select will only work with Hornby decoders " (ie "it isn't DCC at all , it's an incompatible proprietary digital system like Marklin/Motorola") seems not to be based on any particular evidence or reasoning. There do now seem to be a numberr of first hand reports here and Elsewhere that Lenz decoders specifically are recognised (though with one report of an inferior slow speed performance on a Macoder using the Select )

In reading Adrian Halls's 2nd hand comments about the Hornby decoders , it is only fair to recall that he is agent for a rival range , which has just been undercut on price by Hornby , and the Hornby product claims to offer a feature (Back EMF) which the product he sells doesn't hyave . He does have a commercial interest here

In offering a DCC system at about 25% of the accepted price of DCC systems in the UK, Hornby are potentially putting the cat amongst the pidgeons, and it is not surprising if this puts a few noses out of joint , especially where there is a heavy investment in rival much more expensive systems.

I disagree very strongly with the "railway modelling should be a very expensive hobby / cost should be irrelevent when buying DCC" line of argument - it seems to have caused a steep decline of the hobby in Germany , where the product has priced itself out of the market. DC analogue control is a fraction of the price of DCC control (say a third to a quarter of the price for the average layout). DCC will only become mass market when that DCC premium is 50% not 300% (Supermarket DVD players anyone?)

However the Select is simply a train set controller . The real Hornby product for the modeller is the Elite, which we won't see for several months

But if anyone is saying the Hornby digital system is not DCC compatible/compliant - ie that it is not DCC, because it will not work with DCC eqipment - I do think they need to be quite explicit in saying what is not compatible about it, and in what way

Personally I'm suspending judgement till hard evidence in the form of detailed first hand reports of use of the Hornby equipment are available [And no this is not an academic issue personally- I have stock fitted with TCS decoders for a club project and more will be so fitted - I also need a couple of decoders for applications where I don't think 0.5A continous will be exceeded, and Back EMF is desirable. And I could well be in the market for a DCC system at around £100 fairly soon]

To draw this to a conclusion then can we all agree then that unless somebody can actually point to which part of the MNRA standard Hornby Digital is not compatible with, that the following marketing statements made by Hornby and used by all dealers selling Hornby Digital is accurate:-

QUOTE Designed to be NMRA compatible

The Hornby 'Elite' supports RailCom ID detection® Lenz Syztems

Both the 'Select' and 'Elite' support 14, 28 and 128 Speed steps

Xpress Net socket for layout development

Let us all assume that silence is an affirmation of this.

Happy modelling
Gary

It is simple.

Either the statement from Hornby stands or it doesn't. We need clear and concise evidence that Hornby Digital has not been designed to be NMRA compatible and nobody has provided this.

It is an absolutely pointless discussion until there is clear evidence presented pinpointing the part of the NMRA standard that Hornby Digital does not comply with.

Or are Hornby deliberately missleading people and Hornby Digital is not designed to be NMRA compatible?

I don't believe Hornby are in the business of deliberately telling porky pies.

It is a view held by one or two members that Hornby Digital has not been designed to be NMRA compatible and is a "DIY DCC System" and it is really this assumption without any point of reference that I find unnacceptable. All systems that do not have Lenz architecture are "DIY DCC Systems" on this basis!

Happy modelling
Gary

PS I have read Mark's last reply and he makes a valid comment. That is a fact and indisputable. This does not mean that Hornby Digital has not been designed to be NMRA compatible.

PPS On the Bachmann decoder question we need to resolve the main issue first before moving forward. You have not been forgotten!