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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello can you help please.

I've recently rebuilt my layout and it now includes a fiddle yard located below the running surface. To access this fiddle yard trains depart the scenic part of the layout and go down an incline which runs along two sides of my shed where the layout is based.
I have made this incline as shallow as possible, the first part drops 30mm in 1.2M, (1 in 40) the curve around the corner is on the flat and then it drops another 90mm in 2.4M (1 in 27). I believe Hornby recommend incline piers to be set at a gap of 22 sleepers, making the gradient 1 in 17 so I took this as my basis and went from there.
The layout is DCC powered by a Hornby Select fitted to a main bus which is connected to the layout wherever I want a power feed. The line to the fiddle yard has a power feed direct to it.
All track and nearly all rolling stock is Hornby.
Hopefully this sets the scene, but I can discribe more if it will help you to diagnose my problem.

The layour is designed so that I can run six coach rakes, (I wanted to get away from the 3 coach train set). My loco driven Princess can just about handle the gradient with this load behind, but my tender driven loco's, Patriot, 2P and 4F struggle to haul three coaches up the incline. The 2P and 4F have traction tyres fitted, the Patriot does not, to clarify it's a circa 1980's Hornby model.
Power is definately getting to the motor as the loco's experience wheel spin. Without a load to pull they manage the incline without a problem.
Can anyone suggest a remedy to the problem of wheel spin when pulling a load up an incline please.
 

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Unfortunatly you are finding out the hard way why tender drive became so unpopular here in the 90's and why we now insist on loco drive.

I personally dont recommend anyone building gradients steeper than 3% (1:33)

There are 3 possible soloutions.
1. Reduce the incline. which you probably wont want to do as you have already built your layout.

2. Reduce the weight of the coaches. try removing the weights and see if this helps. some coaches (the bachmann mk1's for instance) are quite heavy.

3. Increase the traction on your loco. the hornby traction tyres were pretty poor. try replacing them with roco ones that were made from a different compound and seem to have alot more grip. you could try adding some lead in the top of the tender body.

Let us know how you get on.

Peter
 

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I found when I removed weights from my Bachmann mk1 coaching stock they ran much better ( along with the fitment of Kadee's to the bogies )
Consider 5 coach trains it's funny but odd numbers look better. If you have a Digital system even one like the Select you should be able to double head
so do that or bank make it a feature "it's realistic". Stay away from rail zip !
The Hornby Ringfield isn't noted for torque, or pulling power. But there are solutions. If you like playing with chassis you could substitute the Bullant tender drive unit, expencive but powerful there is a UK agent look in the toddler
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the advice, 5 coach trains could be a help but it's not just that, trying to create a realistic freight train is proving difficult as well due to traction effort.
I was having a look at different options last night and think the only solution is to extend the length of the incline, I should be able to do this by moving the fiddle yard to a different point under the layout and doubling the fiddle line back on it's self. This should give me 6 metres to drop the 120mm I need to get below the baseboards and still have room to get my hand in.
I haven't looked if the Hornby coaches I'm running are weighted, the wagons I know certainly are, if I remove the weights from them won't that make running them a problem, surely they are sold with weights in them for a reason?
 

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How tight is the bend between the inclines? If too tight, it will slow don the train quite a bit and not help with the task.

I am also planning on using shunters to move coaches up to the mainline from the yards below. A pair of Class 20 locos in a consist will haul up any train up my 1:40 ramp. They will then pass on the rolling stock to the mainline engines that went up by themselves or with a lighter load.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Interesting idea, a decent pulling loco to bring rolling stock up from the fiddle yard then transfer to the mainline loco's before entering the scenic section, all i'd need is a couple of headshunts to swap the loco's over. If lengthening the incline doesn't work I might give it a try.
I would use 2nd radius curves on the turn, I'm aiming to keep as much of the fiddle yard as possible hidden under the scenic part. As my scenic boards are only 550mm wide this makes the use of larger curves difficult, but anythings possible.
The line to the fiddle yard is attached to the rear legs of the scenic boards so is fairly easy to adjust, hopefully this weekend I'll have chance to make some adjustments, although my new turntable's just been delivered so I want to get that set up as well.
Work really gets in the way of building and operating!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks to all who offered advice, the problem is now sorted, I've lengthened the distance of the incline by actually putting the fiddle yard on the incline as well as the line leading to it, means rakes without a loco attached are free to move but I'll live with that. Thanks again Mike
 

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just a quickie......I suggest for those curves/corners...(are you using Hornby track?)......easing them into and out of the 2nd radius may also help.....perhaps starting and finishing with thos enew 4th radius curves?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
QUOTE (alastairq @ 31 Jul 2007, 21:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>just a quickie......I suggest for those curves/corners...(are you using Hornby track?)......easing them into and out of the 2nd radius may also help.....perhaps starting and finishing with thos enew 4th radius curves?

Good thinking, I should have said how I've set up the first of the ninty degree curve, yes I am using Hornby set track. I had to clear the scenic baseboard corner and still have enough clearance to run a Princess hauled 12 wheel dining car around the corner. These are the largest loco and coach I have so if they can do it, anything can. Cutting off the corner of scenic baseboard helped a lot!
I came off the straight with a Half 2nd Rad curve to the right of straight, then a normal straight before reversing the curve with 2 double 2nd curves and a 2nd curve, then another straight and finally another reversal and another half second curve to get me back to the 90 degree turn. I've learnt it's best not to reverse a curve without at least a short straight in between the two curves.
I don't know how different this is to what other modellers do but it works for me.
I've spent more time today running trains from the fiddle to the mainline and it's not as smooth as I would like, nor is the hand room sufficient to switch some loco's from one end of a rake to the other. I can see more changes being made in the near future.
For me building my layout is a relaxation experience, part of that being the problem solving. I think I would get bored if I didn't have problems to deal with!!!!
 

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QUOTE (Doug @ 26 Jul 2007, 19:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I am also planning on using shunters to move coaches up to the mainline from the yards below. A pair of Class 20 locos in a consist will haul up any train up my 1:40 ramp. They will then pass on the rolling stock to the mainline engines that went up by themselves or with a lighter load.

I'd never thought of that! Far more positive than telling someone they're screwed!

Seriously I usually recommend 1:50 minimum but like most things all situations are unique and though not relevant to Mike's situation even consider two separate levels rather than use inclines.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 1 Aug 2007, 23:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'd never thought of that! Far more positive than telling someone they're screwed!

Seriously I usually recommend 1:50 minimum but like most things all situations are unique and though not relevant to Mike's situation even consider two separate levels rather than use inclines.
How do you mean two seperate levels? How are they linked?
 
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