[Teal]

Question about Guide Bridge, Manchester in the 1950s.
Please can anyone offer any information, or identify a possible source of any information, about a push-pull incorporating a small steam tank engine that ran out of Guide Bridge station and across Littlemoss? Possibly it travelled via Droylesden station but where was the route and what was the consist please? Any help gratefully received.

PS Still hoping that someone can come up with an answer to my earlier enquiry about the locos that pulled the slam-door, non-corridor trains running from Manchester London Road to Macclesfield via Guide Bridge, Marple Rose Hill and Bollington. (See Peak District Trains) - no posts yet.

Many thanks.

 

[John Webb]

Middleton Press www.middletonpress.co.uk may well have produced one of their books on that area and would be worth looking up.
Oakwood Press don't seem to have anything covering that area - only five books are listed none of which touches on Manchester.
If you live in that area then local libraries, county archives, local history societies etc. may be worth looking into for information. Other sources include the Historical Model Railway Society and similar organisations.

Hope this helps,
Regards,
John Webb

 

[Teal]

QUOTE (John Webb @ 25 Oct 2007, 22:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Middleton Press www.middletonpress.co.uk may well have produced one of their books on that area and would be worth looking up.
Oakwood Press don't seem to have anything covering that area - only five books are listed none of which touches on Manchester.
If you live in that area then local libraries, county archives, local history societies etc. may be worth looking into for information. Other sources include the Historical Model Railway Society and similar organisations.

Hope this helps,
Regards,
John Webb
Many thanks for that, John. Unfortunately I moved away in 1960 and only rarely get back to visit relatives - we now live about 250 miles away. Have looked on the Manchester photo archive website but they don't seem to involve themselves with railways; understandably their records are more to do with Manchester locations and people. Trouble is I took it all for granted in the 1940s and 50s and, apart from underlining the numbers in my Ian Allen ABC books, didn't keep records of where/when seen. Over the years, following several house moves, even the ABC books have gone. Am trying to plan a layout and the mix of different routes that went via Guide Bridge (M/c to Macclesfield, Stalybridge to Stockport, M/c to Sheffield via Woodhead and others (including my little push-pull) plus a sizeable shunting yard and the Ashton to Peak Forest canal alongside give loads of modelling possibilities. Am trying to identify as many locos or consists as possible in advance so that I can take advantage of any offers that come up whilst I am still coming to some agreement with myself about the layout.
Thanks again.

 

[John Webb]

I know the feeling about books - I always threw my ABCs away after marking the numbers in the new edition. Fortunately I kept the last two editions and still have them. I grew up in SE London so I've hardly ever been through Manchester and certainly not in my train-spotting days. Nearest I got was a special excursion to Crewe Works about 1959.
The National Railway Museum's big Search Engine is due 'on line' in the next year or so which should make a great deal more information available.

Regards,
John

PS try www.nostalgiacollection.com who publish the 'Past and Present' series of books looking at various parts of the country - they seem to have a few around Cheshire & Manchester.

 

[John Webb]

Went to the Bushey MRS exhibition today and saw an elderly copy of the 'Past and Present' series covering the area you are interested in.

Also a reference in another book to the 'Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Society' at www.lyrs.com - they might have information of use to you, although pre-BR.

Regards,
John

 

[Teal]

Many thanks for those suggestions. Also have a friend who still lives in the area and who worked at Gorton Tank and then MetroVicks. Have asked him to search his memory and library to see what he can come up with.

 

[woolwinder]

QUOTE (Teal @ 31 Oct 2007, 21:30) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Many thanks for those suggestions. Also have a friend who still lives in the area and who worked at Gorton Tank and then MetroVicks. Have asked him to search his memory and library to see what he can come up with.

Hello Teal,

Have read your various requests for help and info. I may be able to offer something for you. I started my train-spotting days at Dinting (1947). Lived through the changeover from steam to electric on the Woodhead route. Travelled very often Dinting-London Road. Also Stalybridge-Exchange.
Worked for a time at BR Workshops at Dukinfield. My centre of information/interest covers 1947-1955. Please don't ask all your questions at once !!!

woolwinder

 

[Teal]

QUOTE (woolwinder @ 4 Nov 2007, 15:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hello Teal,

Have read your various requests for help and info. I may be able to offer something for you. I started my train-spotting days at Dinting (1947). Lived through the changeover from steam to electric on the Woodhead route. Travelled very often Dinting-London Road. Also Stalybridge-Exchange.
Worked for a time at BR Workshops at Dukinfield. My centre of information/interest covers 1947-1955. Please don't ask all your questions at once !!!

woolwinder
Thanks for your offer. Pulling out my recently bought 1950 abc combined book, I see that some of the C12 and C13 4-4-2T locos were push-pull fitted. Several C13s, including some p-p fitted ones, were shedded at Gorton so I am guessing that it was one of those that I used to see passing under the road bridge from the Ashton Moss direction into Guide Bridge station.
For a period in 1959/60 I worked at Godley (not far from Dinting) in the refrigerated stores of a famous suppliers of ice cream, sausages and pies - now long gone. During that period and for some time after I was friendly with a young lady from Huddersfield, regularly using the train from M/c Exchange. Returning late at night it was always important to stay awake until clearing Stalybridge because the train split there. One section went via M/c Exchange to Liverpool, the other section via Stockport to London so any mistake could be disastrous. Only fouled up once; stayed awake to Stalybridge but then dropped off, only to awake at around 2.30 a.m. at Wigan North Western Station. Next service back to Manchester not until 08.45 a.m. Some kind BR man slowed a fruit train at around 5.00 a.m (Ormskirk and the Fylde were then famous for strawberries and other fresh fruit and BR ran special trains for them) so that I could hop into the guards van, it slowed again whilst passing through Exchange. The man at Wigan charged me for a cheap day return Manchester-Wigan though!
I walked home looking very overhung in my Saturday glad rags, meeting all the ***** and span neighbours on their way to church.
Question, Do you have any idea what the push-pull service was from Guide Bridge?

 

[woolwinder]

QUOTE (Teal @ 6 Nov 2007, 19:00) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks for your offer. Pulling out my recently bought 1950 abc combined book, I see that some of the C12 and C13 4-4-2T locos were push-pull fitted. Several C13s, including some p-p fitted ones, were shedded at Gorton so I am guessing that it was one of those that I used to see passing under the road bridge from the Ashton Moss direction into Guide Bridge station.
For a period in 1959/60 I worked at Godley (not far from Dinting) in the refrigerated stores of a famous suppliers of ice cream, sausages and pies - now long gone. During that period and for some time after I was friendly with a young lady from Huddersfield, regularly using the train from M/c Exchange. Returning late at night it was always important to stay awake until clearing Stalybridge because the train split there. One section went via M/c Exchange to Liverpool, the other section via Stockport to London so any mistake could be disastrous. Only fouled up once; stayed awake to Stalybridge but then dropped off, only to awake at around 2.30 a.m. at Wigan North Western Station. Next service back to Manchester not until 08.45 a.m. Some kind BR man slowed a fruit train at around 5.00 a.m (Ormskirk and the Fylde were then famous for strawberries and other fresh fruit and BR ran special trains for them) so that I could hop into the guards van, it slowed again whilst passing through Exchange. The man at Wigan charged me for a cheap day return Manchester-Wigan though!
I walked home looking very overhung in my Saturday glad rags, meeting all the ***** and span neighbours on their way to church.
Question, Do you have any idea what the push-pull service was from Guide Bridge?

Hello Teal,

Will dig out some info and let you have it. What particular period do you want ?

Ah yes, falling asleep on trains. I had a similar experience over here on the continent. Travelling on the Holland-Scandinavian Express. Should have got out at Bremen but was woken by the whistle on departure from Hamburg. Next stop Lubeck, on the way to Copenhagen. At least we had decent trains in those days !!!

woolwinder

 

[woolwinder]

QUOTE (woolwinder @ 7 Nov 2007, 08:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hello Teal,

Will dig out some info and let you have it. What particular period do you want ?

Ah yes, falling asleep on trains. I had a similar experience over here on the continent. Travelling on the Holland-Scandinavian Express. Should have got out at Bremen but was woken by the whistle on departure from Hamburg. Next stop Lubeck, on the way to Copenhagen. At least we had decent trains in those days !!!

woolwinder

Hello Teal,

Following is an extract from the WTT for May - Sep 1949:

Guide Bridge to Oldham, Weekdays:

Guide Bridge Depart 6:30 am 7:19am 8:50 am 3:30 pm 5:42 pm 9:50 pm

Oldham Arr 6:44 am 7:33 am 9:05 am 3:44 pm 5:57 pm 10:04pm
Clegg St

Oldham Depart 6:59 am 8:03 am 9:17 am 4:28 pm 6:09 pm 10:15 pm
Clegg St

Guide Bridge Arr 7:13 am 8:17 am 9:31 am 4:42 pm 6:24 pm 10:29 pm

Certain of these trains ran to/from Oldham Glodwick Road

Hope this is of some help.

woolwinder

 

[Mike Button]

Please forgive my ignorance but can someone discribe push pull operation. I am imagining a loco in the middle of a couple of carriages, something like an M7 for instance. My query is what sort of coaches would you have, would they have to be brake coaches or would non-brakes suffice? Can you have a loco at one end with a break at the other and avoid the loco running round?

I'm too young to remember the days of steam and have yet to see push pull in operation on a preserved layout.

 

[John Webb]

Dear Mike,

Push-pull could either be a loco sandwiched between two coaches or at the end of one or two coaches. The coach at the end of train away from the loco was a special 'Auto-coach' and had a place for the driver to stand and observe the line ahead and controls for brake and regulator - the latter operated remotely. The fireman remained on the footplate to stoke the fire, keep the water level up in the boiler, etc.. He would also take over driving the loco if the remotely operated regulator system developed problems.
Locos were often small 0-6-0 or 0-4-4 or 2-4-0 tanks - GWR/WR 14XX series, SR M7 or 'Terriers' and the like.

Hornby model the Auto-coach in BR Maroon (R4100 E in the current catalogue) and I think have done it previously in the 'Blood and Custard' (Carmine and Cream) and the GWR Chocolate and Cream liveries.

The Auto-coach was the fore-runner of the Driving Vehicle Trailer (DVT) used in more recent times. The purpose was identical - you don't have to run the loco round from one end of the train to the other when you reach a terminus.

Hope this helps,
John Webb

 

[woolwinder]

QUOTE (John Webb @ 9 Nov 2007, 21:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Dear Mike,

Push-pull could either be a loco sandwiched between two coaches or at the end of one or two coaches. The coach at the end of train away from the loco was a special 'Auto-coach' and had a place for the driver to stand and observe the line ahead and controls for brake and regulator - the latter operated remotely. The fireman remained on the footplate to stoke the fire, keep the water level up in the boiler, etc.. He would also take over driving the loco if the remotely operated regulator system developed problems.
Locos were often small 0-6-0 or 0-4-4 or 2-4-0 tanks - GWR/WR 14XX series, SR M7 or 'Terriers' and the like.

Hornby model the Auto-coach in BR Maroon (R4100 E in the current catalogue) and I think have done it previously in the 'Blood and Custard' (Carmine and Cream) and the GWR Chocolate and Cream liveries.

The Auto-coach was the fore-runner of the Driving Vehicle Trailer (DVT) used in more recent times. The purpose was identical - you don't have to run the loco round from one end of the train to the other when you reach a terminus.

Hope this helps,
John Webb

John,

In reply to your above, may I just add that the particular one being discussed, (Guide Bridge - Oldham), was in fact a 2-coach unit propelled by a C 13 4-4-2 tank loco. Similar units also operated Manchester (London Rd) - Glossop until the route was electrified.

woolwinder

 

[Mike Button]

Thanks John, that is helpful, so I've got a 14XX or Terrier to run a Push Pull service and I can easily get hold of an autocoach (as I'm modelling "preserved" era the livery is immaterial), but what should the other coach be, I've considered a suburban "B" set made by Hornby or Bachmann, would this be any good?
Another possibility is a GWR clerestory coach I picked up recently, would a GWR 14XX, GWR clerestory 3rd and GWR autocoach be a realistic grouping? I could add a GWR "Toad" to this rake.
I guess I'm free to run whatever my preserved line has got available as rakes, but I would be interested to know what prototype push pull sets were like.
Thanks again, Mike

 

[John Webb]

Woolwinder - Thanks - my knowledge of the NW railways is very weak, having rarely travelled in that part of the world, especially in train-spotting days. Being in SE London holidays tended to be South or SW coast or grandparents in Warwickshire.

Mike - glad to have been of help. I would suggest a look at some of the websites for the preservation centre at Didcot and other GWR-based heritage railways would be worthwhile. Go to www.heritagerailways.com. It may be Didcot or another line is restoring, or has restored, an Auto-coach to form an operating set. A Mk 1 57ft surbuban coach on a heritage line is as probably as good as anything but may not be completely prototypical.

My main layout is also based on a 'preserved railway' somewhere in the S half of England - gives a lot of freedom to run what I like!

Regards,
John

 

[Mike Button]

Quite agree John, got fed up trying to run prototypical trains with only 5 or 6 bogie coaches so thought where do you see trains that consist of only 5 or 6 coaches, answer on a preserved railway! My "locals" are the Kent and East Sussex, Spa Valley and as my partners a keen gardener a visit to Sheffield Park / Bluebell Line is quite often possible!
My imaginary setting (we are in the process of moving so nothing is settled yet as I don't know how much room I will have the other end) has a variety of loco's preserved, plus a few visiting loco's (Princess Elizabeth, Clan Line and Knowle) I run a rake of Bachmann Mk1's (excellent!) and a vintage rake of Hornby LMS Clerestory's / 4 Wheel coaches. I'm cureently putting together a dining train and looking for something along the line of a push pull set, hence my interest in this post.
Is anyone else running a preserved line?
Keep modelling Mike

 

[Mercator II]

I am building one with my brother Andii, you can see its progress in the gallary or on the thread, its called Mill Dale.

Its set somwhere 'up north'

Have built it as i have lots of 'berty bassetts' (all sorts) and didn't want to be tied down to one area or era, so its good, I can run what I like

Only need a bigger garage to house it

Brian

 

[John Webb]

Mike,

Someone has recently set up a website for those who model preserved railways - try www.heritagemodelrailway.co.uk. I haven't tried it recently but you may find it of interest.

Regards,
John Webb

 

[woolwinder]

QUOTE (Teal @ 25 Oct 2007, 21:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Question about Guide Bridge, Manchester in the 1950s.
Please can anyone offer any information, or identify a possible source of any information, about a push-pull incorporating a small steam tank engine that ran out of Guide Bridge station and across Littlemoss? Possibly it travelled via Droylesden station but where was the route and what was the consist please? Any help gratefully received.

PS Still hoping that someone can come up with an answer to my earlier enquiry about the locos that pulled the slam-door, non-corridor trains running from Manchester London Road to Macclesfield via Guide Bridge, Marple Rose Hill and Bollington. (See Peak District Trains) - no posts yet.

Many thanks.

Just in case anyone is still reading this thread, there is an excellent photo and scale drawing of the Manchester (London Road) - Glossop/Hadfield Push-Pull unit in Railway Modeller. I forget which year, but if you will have patience, I will locate it and give details.

woolwinder

 

[woolwinder]

QUOTE (woolwinder @ 13 Nov 2007, 09:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Just in case anyone is still reading this thread, there is an excellent photo and scale drawing of the Manchester (London Road) - Glossop/Hadfield Push-Pull unit in Railway Modeller. I forget which year, but if you will have patience, I will locate it and give details.

woolwinder

As promised in the above, here are details of the article/drawings. Railway Modeller, November 1968, pages 338, 339, 340. The text contains a detailed description of the carriages and their history. No doubt there are other sources but this is a major and compact one.

woolwinder