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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay... As "warned"...


Please would everyone make comments and ask questions regarding Grifter's Topic here... I'm not making any commitment to respond on everything... but I will try to be helpful as far as practical. Please keep in mind - Grifter got in first!

Grifter's Topic... http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...showtopic=29445

PLEASE - read from the start - and look to see if anything has been dealt with already before raising a question - happy to answer Qs - but even keep refering back and providing links takes a lot of time - and that detracts from adding new/additional stuff... I'm not "moaning" - we just need to be practical...


Anyway... I'm off to watch the golf for a couple of days... So - have a great bunfight here... I'll look back in from time-to-time...
 

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I'm hijacking the following...


QUOTE (Chris Grouse @ 26 Sep 2014, 13:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Definitely over complicating things! That slotted distant is pointless, the shunt signal itself will 'advise caution', but for what reason is caution advised in running through the station? It's not on a running line so is therefore not required. I would assume that the shed exit is subject to a 5mph PSR anyway, and likewise the station being on a fairly sharp curve would have a low speed through anyway, particularly as the shed exit isn't onto the main through platform.
Also I wouldn't have thought the signal protecting the loco refuge siding from trains halfway along the loop platform would need a slotted or a fixed distant either, as there's already too many distant arms!
Is always more difficult doing this over a forum, give me an hour or two of your time in a local pub and we'd have it all sorted! Don't worry about FPL's either!

Chris

The platform line can be either a Running or a Non-Running Line... The loco yard being departed from... the yard itself would be Non-Running... any reception/departure track can be signalled as either Running or Non-Running - but not both... I'm assuming Non-Running in both directions in this case.

Ignore FPLs but note Permanent Speed Restrictions!!!
Drivers!!!


Hadn't spotted - (or had I???) a Distant coming out of the Pacific road into platform 1... This would again be a 2ft arm - or - more likely a Ground signal. If I were to be pedantic I would say that the siding wouldn't be where it is... but - we are working on a pre-existing layout with "historical connections/significance" so I'm working on what there is and only suggesting minor alterations...

There are an awful lot of Distants... Grifter seems to like yellow signals -
- . Again - this comes from working with the layout as it is... There would be all sorts of other options if this were only at a planning stage... including happily ignoring all my suggestions!
In that context - there aren't too many Slotted Distants - just an awful lot of them... and Grifter is letting himself in for making them...


Yes... a while over a pint - any option can be covered... but - everyone else on here won't get to look at the possible solutions... And, I'm told by Grifter, that he wouldn't be getting his head round so much... I could far more easily have said "put these signals here..." and effectively ended the Topic - subject to people telling me I'd got it wrong - which would be quite possible - ages ago... And - it's YOUR round!!!

"Don't worry about FPLs",,,




PS Correction - should have checked the diagram...
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3889/1535560...5d27054c0_o.jpg
The signal out of the Pacific siding #13 is a 2ft arm and doesn't get a Distant...
The Running Signal protecting the Trailing connection #4 does get a Slotted Distant #10... The Slotted Distant that might be ommitted would be it's co-acting repeater #10R.
It is also true that all the Splitting Distants could be omitted.

 

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QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 26 Sep 2014, 13:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And, I'm told by Grifter, that he wouldn't be getting his head round so much...

It is certainly helping me to understand it much more easily by being able to re-read certain thighs, whereas a conversation is quickly lost to time.

QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 26 Sep 2014, 13:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And - it's YOUR round!!!

I could not agree more, and if we ever meet, that WILL be the case!
 

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QUOTE (Grifter_Guru @ 26 Sep 2014, 16:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 26 Sep 2014, 13:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And, I'm told by Grifter, that he wouldn't be getting his head round so much...

It is certainly helping me to understand it much more easily by being able to re-read certain thighs, whereas a conversation is quickly lost to time.


***EDIT***

Thighs should have read as "Things", so edited to read as such. As for Thighs? I should learn to concentrate on what I am doing and not keep thinking of... errr.......AHEM!!)
 

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Errrr.......... No. Lol
 

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QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 26 Sep 2014, 14:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm hijacking the following...


The platform line can be either a Running or a Non-Running Line... The loco yard being departed from... the yard itself would be Non-Running... any reception/departure track can be signalled as either Running or Non-Running - but not both... I'm assuming Non-Running in both directions in this case.

Ignore FPLs but note Permanent Speed Restrictions!!!
Drivers!!!

Why are we going to use FPL's on a model railway? Not really required unless we're using one of the larger scales where something like that could be modelled and also be operational...

And I'm not a driver, I sit at the other end and spend my life going backwards!

Chris
 

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I would imagine a "representation" is more the key here, though I am intent on having a go at making one!!

If it's goes in, it has to work or it gets left out................
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Why do people model fishplates? Come to that - why do they model steam engines - with electric motors in them?

Isn't it all a matter of what level of "realistic image" one wants to model in one's hobby?

The reason for going on about FPLs is that, like cab interiors, they would be there. They would, in fact be there all of the time and more visible than even a Driver in a cab.

More significantly - if we are to look at "how it would be signalled" on the "real thing" - the issue of where FPLs would be required and how far they can be from the lever frame is relevant. There is no way that anyone is usually going to model the scale distances - any more than they will model correct Clearing Points, Overlaps or Sighting Distances,... but that doesn't mean that we completely ignore them. Knowing what "should be there" and where helps us to understand how to compromise and, particularly, to "selectively compress" our models.
In addition - if we want to later move on to attempting "realistic operation" having the signals in the correct places and understanding what they are, why they are and how they would be worked all help toward a more satisfying experience of the hobby.

---

As to modelling working FPLs in 4mm... I (personally) don't see any point in going that far. Equally - I don't see any point in just chucking out the whole idea of representing them with dummy equipment... If one wants to go to that level of detail - it looks good. Shaun Robson has posted some material on his "Economical FPLs" in his topics... And he's even bothered to develop tiny point detection as well. (I haven't even mentioned detection yet...)

It IS all a matter of personal choice.

My choice is to try to help people to understand what would be there. It is up to individuals how much they adopt and how much they choose to model. I am pretty certain that if I didn't bother with FPLs someone would be saying that I should be going into extensive detail about them...

Meanwhile - back to the golf...

 

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If I can "engineer" a working FPL, then I will do. It is just a pet thing of mine that I like to have such things working, rather than not and I will, where I can, always try to make such things work...

Too much of an engineering mind, too much time and not enough other things to be doing combine to make me question my ability to create such things as working FPL's.

Which reminds me... how far into shauns thread is the tiny point detection mentioned?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
QUOTE (Grifter_Guru @ 28 Sep 2014, 12:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Which reminds me... how far into shauns thread is the tiny point detection mentioned?

It's somewhere between the beginning and the end
but - both topics are well worth working through...
(Especially if you are lacking things to occupy you...
)
 

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Thanks FAL, can you pm the "details" pls.

That is precisely what I am looking at doing.....

***EDIT***

Just realised I have seen that before. Also worked out a more compact method too.

***EDIT***
 

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QUOTE (Grifter_Guru @ 1 Oct 2014, 00:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>A bit like installing a new passenger platform on an old goods loop, as happened at Stockport.

QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 1 Oct 2014, 01:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How so? Do you have pictures? Or diagrams?


In short, when a new platform was required, a new one was built on what was the old goods loop through the station. (Not that VT are allowed to or can use it due to gauging issues)

In place of renumbering all platforms, they simply made the new platform "Platform 0".

Was up there again a few weeks ago as it happens. Stockport to new mills by rail, then on the canal towing path from new mills to Whaley bridge old interchange with the long gone C&HP, then back along the canal to Buxworth Basins and the Pub. Good 4 hours session, then ride back to New Mills and head south again!

Do have photo's, just not online at present
 

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QUOTE (Greyvoices @ 2 Oct 2014, 11:45) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I hesitate to make any comment on this fascinating subject that might interfere with the flow but ..........

I understand the restrictions of box to signal/point in a mechanical environment as you have described it and wonder if this was the reason for the prevalence of set back sidings utilising non-facing points. Placing access to the set back siding adjacent to the box enabled longer trains to operate on a route that would have been more restricted if loops were employed.

I will welcome your thoughts on this Bear?

Best regards ............... Greyvoices (alias John)

The reason for connections to sidings being made as Trailing Connections as far as possible was simply the aversion of both the railway companies and the Board of Trade (even before it gained more assertive statutory powers in 1889) to any Facing Connections that weren't essential.

While it seems that other countries had few worries about Facing Connections all over the place - and, in practice we used them a lot all over the colonies - there was always a distinct avoidance of Facing connections in the UK right up to modern times - I would place that as (approximately) from 1990 - which would put the planning element back to 1980. There were earlier examples - but these would have been far more on the major routes. (Major routes have the revenue and pressures on track occupancy that get them updates far more quickly than anywhere else).

That deals with the connections.

Length of loops...

Yes- using mechanical (muscle power) points would restict a loop to 500 yards to the extreme limits before the adjustment to 350 yards for the Facing entry... which would allow 700 yards for later loops...

Keep in mind that a loop, by definition, has a Facing entry and a Trailing exit. (Both may have Trap/Catch Points just inside the loop).

Train length is a factor... But this applies throughout a route. It's often more of a nuisance to provide a few longer loops and try to fit trains into them than to have all the loops the same length. A few long loops are fine - so long as the service isn't disrupted... then any long trains can be a menace. (A solution to this is to dump part of a long train into any convenient siding and forward the dumped part later - not popular with anyone - but it can help to unblock the system). (Unblocking the sstem is always important!)

Keeping the points in front of the Box... This is possibly more to do with train detection - or lack of it - than anything else. Once Track Circuits on the approach to the first Stop Signal came to be more usual the situation probably changed. An Approach TC would allow either the signaloman to change the signal (small) into a loop/Refuge or the electric interlocking to work an Approach Control.
An alternative to an Approach TC is a Driver's Call Plunger - except that a train has to actually stop for the Fireman to get down and work the plunger.
  • Okay - a Driver's Call Plunger... This is a push switch in a box on the signal post or a little post very near the signal post. When "plunged" the switch gives an indication in the box - usually with an audible as well as a visual element. This is usually indicated back to the position on the track - so that the Fireman knows that the presence of his train has been indicated and responded to. This all saves the train crew having to carry out Rule 55. Using it to indicate that the train is there and ready to go forward - possibly into a loop - is just an added bonus.
    Where a DCP is provided the signal post will have a D shaped plate protruding to the right of the post added to the face of the post... So far I don't have a picture of one of these (probably because there aren't any left in use)... Does anyone know of an example that survives anywhere| please?

Setting back into refuges (any sidings or the opposite line) takes time - so it impacts on headways and line capacity. I might get round to that later. For now it just means that Facing connections do have strong advantages for traffic capacity... But this is measured against the complete devastation of capacity if/when anything falls off...

Another way round the issues of train length and location of points was to have two signalboxes - and these could be relatively close together - with the associated Slotted Distants (at least). This could allow for a long additional line (not called a loop - because a loop is controlled by the same Box) (Unless it is a "loop line - such as the "Catforf Loop" that "loops" around or between other lines). (Don't blame me! I didn't start the use of these terms!!!) The additional line could be a Running Line or a Non-Running Line. That is just the start of the options... As an example - A Goods only line could have Permisive Block Working instead of Absolute Block...

Yet another solution that became available was to use Motor Points - with seperate FPLs initially and later in self-locking forms. These would need TCs though...

Hopefully that provides some of the answers...

 

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Thank you Bear, fascinating stuff.

I am sorry if I posted my question in the wrong thread.

I was intrigued by the fireman's call plunger and found an image of the signal post plate here :FCP link and a photograph of the actual plunger on page 145 of "A Pictorial Record of LNER Constituent Signalling" by A.A. Maclean, an OPC book published in 1983.

Best regards .................. Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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No problem
Your question actually fitted in extremely well where it was - I was just being pedantic (which is so very rare for me
) and wanting to limit the wanderings in that topic.

Thanks for the link and reference.


If you look at that link you will see the next item below the Call Plunger is a "Direct line telephone" plate. On a Signal post or on a phone very close to it - i.e. an SPT (Signal Post Telephone) this is a phone straight to the Box that controls the signal. (Which now makes me ask "to which Box will an SPT on a Slotted Stop Signal go???" There's always something new... I would hazard a guess that it would go to the Box In Advance - because that is the Box that the movement would be arriving at... but I will try to recall to check...)
Anyway - some more recent SPTs have the plate shown but with a "0" digit in the centre of the plate. This indicates that anything stopped at the signal should make immediate contact with the Box and not wait the usual "reasonable time".

Both types of telephone plate can occur with the TC lozenge.
Plain telephone plates (no "0") can appear on their own.
"0" plates will usually appear with a TC lozenge outside TCB territory - while in TCB territory there is no need for the TC lozenge.
The D plate will usually appear - on much earlier signals - on its own.
The TC lozenge can appear on its own.
Some earlier TC lozenges had a letter "T" on them - this indicated a telephone... These plates often remain a long time - and there can be an additional direct telephone plate (with or without the "0") added to keep the whole thing up-to-date.

Call Plungers were mostly on arrival signals - although they could be elsewhere.
The earliest TCs (and indicators for their presence - the early ones were company creations in their own designs) were provided on the lengths of track arriving at Station Limits... Usually the next additions were TCs from Starting Signals all the way to Advanced Starting Signals. Others were added later as the need was identified.



 

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Okay - I remembered to check - and the SPT on a Slotted Stop Signal (I.e. a Stop Signal controlled by Two Boxes) Would be direct to the Box In Advance --- At least - taking this a step further - it would be to the Box In Advance when that Box was a Block Post...
So...
  • i. Both Boxes are Block Posts = SPT goes to Box In Advance.
    ii. Box In Advance is a Block Post (Box In Rear isn't) = SPT goes to Box In Advance.
    iii. Box In Advance is NOT a Block Post (Box In Rear is) = SPT goes to Box In Rear.

    iv. In the unlikely event of neither Box being a Block Post the SPT would probably go to the Box In Advance - but local conditions might vary this.

See!
It's all dead easy really!




PS Perhaps I should explain that it is possible to get two Boxes very close together - and therefore a Slotted Stop signal - when one Box is a Block Post - probably with connections to sidings or even a junction - while the other Box is there to look after a Level Crossing - or at least to primarily look after a level crossing - it might do other things under the supervision of the Block Post Box. (I'd probably best not wander off in that direction).

 
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