Model Railway Forum banner
21 - 40 of 46 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,630 Posts
QUOTE (John Webb @ 5 May 2008, 19:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Most British railway signals were either square wooden posts with a taper, round metal posts (which eventually became the standard for British Railways) or on the Southern Railway/Region had a post made from two old rails bolted together with spacers. There were lattice posts but they were in the minority. I think many of us would accept the round post type which would suit much of the 1950s/60s British Railways period popular with many modellers. They are still in use today where semaphore signals have not yet been replaced.

Agreed this would be the best single type, I believe the LMS and LNER both adopted them before BR. Of course the GWR and Western Region did something totally different (as usual)...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,524 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
QUOTE (Edwin @ 6 May 2008, 15:38) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Agreed this would be the best single type, I believe the LMS and LNER both adopted them before BR. Of course the GWR and Western Region did something totally different (as usual)...
The round steel post used by the GWR from the 1930s onwards was not much different from the tubular posts adopted by the other companies around the same time. Looking at photos, the main differences seem to be in the way that the GWR designed and fitted brackets compared to the others.

The lattice masts seem to have been used most in the highlands of Scotland and in a few other areas.

Regards,
John Webb
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,995 Posts
QUOTE the main differences seem to be in the way that the GWR designed and fitted brackets compared to the others

Apart from the small matter of GWR arms being lower quadrant while the more stuff on other regions had changed to upper?


David
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
The round steel post used by the GWR from the 1930s onwards was not much different from the tubular posts adopted by the other companies around the same time. Looking at photos, the main differences seem to be in the way that the GWR designed and fitted brackets compared to the others.

The lattice masts seem to have been used most in the highlands of Scotland and in a few other areas.


As David points out the GWR had lower quadrant and they did use tube, but it was not very similar to the LMS/BR type.
I think this is where the market will run into difficulties, Lattice post were quite widespread depending on what railway company built the original signalling. Think East Anglia, the GN main line from Kings Cross northbound, the LSWR used lattice posts as did the LMS. LNWR were often square post wooden and there were other company varieties too. Because of this variation to make an 'authentic' model signal would determine which company/region the signal would be used in. I think that those who would pay say £25 for a single arm starter, (using the mentioned viessman as a comparable price/quality indicator), would be the sort of modellers or enthusiast who would want the signal to be 'correct'. I don't mean exact fidelity, but to be a very good representation of the signal for that region/company.
For example a model of a GWR branch line with lattice post signals would be as wrong as a GN branch with GWR lower quadrant signals, and I think that those likely to pay for quality signals would likely recognise that anachronism.

If I'm right, that unfortunately potentially fragments the market and drives up costs further.

http://greengoscalerail.fotopic.net/p31919529.html
Heres an example. This is a simple LMS lattice post bracket signal. It is very different from an LNER version. Having built it, I do think that when you start to get this sort of structure, which were pretty common in the UK, good quality RTR signals are going to be a very expensive proposition altogether. Having said that I'd love to be proved wrong!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,313 Posts
I maybe proved wrong but I believe the majority of model railway/railroad modellers are not so nit-picky, that they would not use any item that did not exist in the flesh on their representation of such a line.
My Empire is loosely based on GWR/WR but I have no qualms about running locos that may or could or should have run on those rails & so to get another item which will make it look more like a rail network like RTR semaphore signals would be a blessing.

For those who follow the actual railway/railroad & must have the correct type of post, etc, good, but we must not forget that the hobby has a few compromises & to the majority of users; having the correct type of signal post would be a minor part of their enjoyment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,611 Posts
Hi Ron,

That is where the Germanic modeller is so lucky. If you model post 1925 then there is a high chance that the DRG patterns are ok. Pre 1925 and the individual Länderbahn patterns are more common. That being said, railway buildings are the exception as most of these were built prior to 1925.

It is a shame that Viessman signals cannot be adapted for OO, as they are excellent in both their finish and workings.

As for modellers being picky, I personally think that there are 3 distinct branchs of the hobby now, the rivit counters, those following prototype practice and the others. I like to think that the prototype practice group is a growing group.

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,524 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
David, the fact that the GWR & WR used lower quadrant signals compared to most using upper was so obvious to me I didn't think it worth mentioning; perhaps I should have done in the interests of clarity for others.

My comments about the lattice masts were based on a quick thumb-through several reference books while on line.

And of course some railways tried out cast concrete posts....... the variations go on and on, I admit.

But I still think a good compromise would be tubular posts circa 1950s/60s BR practice. You could have both upper quadrant and lower quadrant signals fitted to these and cover a significant set of people's needs with minimum inaccuracy.

Regards,
John Webb
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,630 Posts
I think I'm right in saying that both LMS and LNER adopted tubular post upper quadrants at some point in their lifetimes - I'm sure someone on here can confirm (with dates) or deny! If this is so then modellers of later periods on these companies could justifiably use these with the back story that the signalling had been renenewed or the older ones had just rusted or rotted. Same applies post-1948 on any region bar the Western.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,995 Posts
QUOTE David, the fact that the GWR & WR used lower quadrant signals compared to most using upper was so obvious to me I didn't think it worth mentioning; perhaps I should have done in the interests of clarity for others.

I brought it up in case some one saw a nice big band wagon rolling down the hill with one type of signal on it and said hey one signal will do all. Imagine the reviews if only one quadrant type came out. You never know who reads this stuff looking for product ideas.


David
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,524 Posts
Discussion Starter · #31 ·
QUOTE (Edwin @ 7 May 2008, 12:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think I'm right in saying that both LMS and LNER adopted tubular post upper quadrants at some point in their lifetimes - I'm sure someone on here can confirm (with dates) or deny! ....

My various reference books all indicate a change to steel tubular posts by both GWR, LMS and LNER during the 1930s, but of course these were either installed when an area was resignalled or when individual wooden posts needed replacement so it was not an 'across the board' change. And on the SR the use of posts made from old rail went on well into BR times.

Regards,
John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,630 Posts
QUOTE (dwb @ 7 May 2008, 17:54) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...some one saw a nice big band wagon rolling down the hill with one type of signal on it...

What a wonderful thought
Anyone make model band wagons?

QUOTE (dwb @ 7 May 2008, 17:54) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Imagine the reviews if only one quadrant type came out.

Yeah, wouldn't do to upset the G*R fans would it? Might even provoke an adverse review from the Modeller.
 

·
Chief mouser
Joined
·
11,775 Posts
QUOTE (Edwin @ 8 May 2008, 07:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Anyone make model band wagons?

Yup - Trix did a set with a bandwagon, complete with band.

Regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
QUOTE (Edwin @ 12 May 2008, 09:30) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Went through Newport on Friday - at East Usk several GWR posts have been fitted with upper-quadrant arms. Prototype for everything? (but only for the contemporary scene).

There was one of those at Litchfield City - and that was deep in LNWR territory - it was abolished many years ago when the City line electrification at Birmingham was being put it.

Of course the GWR did have U/Q signals of their own
 

·
Paul Hamilton aka &quot;Lancashire Fusilier&quot;
Joined
·
844 Posts
It is most interesting reading about what people would pay for a generic tubular post upper or lower quadrant starter signal.

I have commenced building my flock (collective term for multiple signals??) of some 50 odd signals based on the fine signal planning performed by one of our very own members here and I would have to say that having never soldered a kit before in my life I am incredibly pleased with results thus far and while the greater audience will no doubt wish to judge this for themselves I would suggest that the "average" modeller is perhaps scared of soldering (as indeed I was before taking the plunge) and thus believes it out of reach.

So far I have spent around 3 hours on the model with simply the lamp, lamp bracket, finial and operating wires to install before the entire metallic components are basically complete. I believe this will take about 1-2 hours tonight and allowing another hour for painting and glazing, bearing in mind I am actually making mine operate with light in the lamp adding a degree of difficulty. I believe the whole thing to probably end up taking about 6 hours in total. Now that is the first ever kit I have ever made. If I can't halve this time within the first dozen or so signals I make, using a little batch building where appropriate, I will be most surprised. I reckon with some basic preparation, ie batch cutting of tubes to lengths and various part removals from frets etc that a single starter could possible be made in as little as a couple of hours.

Where am I going with this?

Great question, however while I firmly believe then that this is all within the capabilities of many of the folk who frequent this forum, the cost therefore of having them made by other's shouldn't be too expensive. I reckon that they could be made on a case by case basis for a reasonable price and perhaps that price is 25-30 quid but for a hand made all metal constructed product is this really too much to pay? I couldn't justify it for 50 or so and besides I couldn't be happier than making them myself believe it or not (some folk actually admit to enjoying ballsting - so there!) however for a smaller layout with say no more than 6 or so signals it could be viable for someone to purchase them. As pointed out they would be superior to Hornby and Ratio without any doubt.

Maybe I should flog the first one on eBay to see what people are actually prepared to pay then and let's see what the market can actually support? I know some fantasy figure painters sell Citadel miniatures of warhammer types on eBay and command up to and exceeding 3 figures per item in some cases.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,150 Posts
Hi There.
Maybe you could show us with pictures & a brief description what you have done. It might encourage others to have a go. I'm sure people would try it if they knew where to start.


QUOTE (Lancashire Fusilier @ 13 May 2008, 08:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It is most interesting reading about what people would pay for a generic tubular post upper or lower quadrant starter signal.

I have commenced building my flock (collective term for multiple signals??) of some 50 odd signals based on the fine signal planning performed by one of our very own members here and I would have to say that having never soldered a kit before in my life I am incredibly pleased with results thus far and while the greater audience will no doubt wish to judge this for themselves I would suggest that the "average" modeller is perhaps scared of soldering (as indeed I was before taking the plunge) and thus believes it out of reach.

So far I have spent around 3 hours on the model with simply the lamp, lamp bracket, finial and operating wires to install before the entire metallic components are basically complete. I believe this will take about 1-2 hours tonight and allowing another hour for painting and glazing, bearing in mind I am actually making mine operate with light in the lamp adding a degree of difficulty. I believe the whole thing to probably end up taking about 6 hours in total. Now that is the first ever kit I have ever made. If I can't halve this time within the first dozen or so signals I make, using a little batch building where appropriate, I will be most surprised. I reckon with some basic preparation, ie batch cutting of tubes to lengths and various part removals from frets etc that a single starter could possible be made in as little as a couple of hours.

Where am I going with this?

Great question, however while I firmly believe then that this is all within the capabilities of many of the folk who frequent this forum, the cost therefore of having them made by other's shouldn't be too expensive. I reckon that they could be made on a case by case basis for a reasonable price and perhaps that price is 25-30 quid but for a hand made all metal constructed product is this really too much to pay? I couldn't justify it for 50 or so and besides I couldn't be happier than making them myself believe it or not (some folk actually admit to enjoying ballsting - so there!) however for a smaller layout with say no more than 6 or so signals it could be viable for someone to purchase them. As pointed out they would be superior to Hornby and Ratio without any doubt.

Maybe I should flog the first one on eBay to see what people are actually prepared to pay then and let's see what the market can actually support? I know some fantasy figure painters sell Citadel miniatures of warhammer types on eBay and command up to and exceeding 3 figures per item in some cases.
 

·
Just another modeller
Joined
·
9,983 Posts
QUOTE (Lancashire Fusilier @ 13 May 2008, 16:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It is most interesting reading about what people would pay for a generic tubular post upper or lower quadrant starter signal.

I have commenced building my flock (collective term for multiple signals??) of some 50 odd signals based on the fine signal planning performed by one of our very own members here and I would have to say that having never soldered a kit before in my life I am incredibly pleased with results thus far and while the greater audience will no doubt wish to judge this for themselves I would suggest that the "average" modeller is perhaps scared of soldering (as indeed I was before taking the plunge) and thus believes it out of reach.

So far I have spent around 3 hours on the model with simply the lamp, lamp bracket, finial and operating wires to install before the entire metallic components are basically complete. I believe this will take about 1-2 hours tonight and allowing another hour for painting and glazing, bearing in mind I am actually making mine operate with light in the lamp adding a degree of difficulty. I believe the whole thing to probably end up taking about 6 hours in total. Now that is the first ever kit I have ever made. If I can't halve this time within the first dozen or so signals I make, using a little batch building where appropriate, I will be most surprised. I reckon with some basic preparation, ie batch cutting of tubes to lengths and various part removals from frets etc that a single starter could possible be made in as little as a couple of hours.

Where am I going with this?

Great question, however while I firmly believe then that this is all within the capabilities of many of the folk who frequent this forum, the cost therefore of having them made by other's shouldn't be too expensive. I reckon that they could be made on a case by case basis for a reasonable price and perhaps that price is 25-30 quid but for a hand made all metal constructed product is this really too much to pay? I couldn't justify it for 50 or so and besides I couldn't be happier than making them myself believe it or not (some folk actually admit to enjoying ballsting - so there!) however for a smaller layout with say no more than 6 or so signals it could be viable for someone to purchase them. As pointed out they would be superior to Hornby and Ratio without any doubt.

Maybe I should flog the first one on eBay to see what people are actually prepared to pay then and let's see what the market can actually support? I know some fantasy figure painters sell Citadel miniatures of warhammer types on eBay and command up to and exceeding 3 figures per item in some cases.

***bring it with you when next you visit - I'd love to see it!

You are probably about right for hand made with 2~3 hours if batch built, but they'd need to be much faster for production line - no more than 1 hour which I believe is possible. AND - that 2~3 hours would I think make them far more than GBP30 from a pro. (An average sized/complexity brass loco with "out of the box" detail is about 25 hours - and how much do they sell those for???)

I've been looking at this as a possible product and my estimate for a semi mass produced LMS lower or upper quadrant single arm semaphore is somehwere like a direct me > user RRP $A49~$A69 if made in China... that'd be all brass with LED and intended for use with the Veismann damped solenoid or similar.... or a relay (they make a good signal actuator)

The problem is that if I produce one, it'd be the LMS/Midland taper post lower quadrant as I model pre-WW2 - followed by the upper quadrant and then I'd have everyone after me for all the other options :) :) :) ..... Sounds fine as an idea but the quantities for this sot of project are at the 1,000 plus level to keep the cost right and thats a lot of cash!

Plus: To sell that many needs distribution added, and that creates a problem: if it had to go through a couple more pairs of hands with their attendant profit margins then the price would exceed $A99, which would kill the product.

So.... perhaps half that in a hybrid of polycarbonate plastic or similar and etched metal parts may be possible..... I wonder!

It'll be interesting to see if it happens from one of the majors!

Richard
DCCconcepts
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,524 Posts
Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I do wonder from comments made so far if Ratio could be pursuaded to toughen up their posts, perhaps by having a metal core the plastic is moulded round? This would stiffen and strengthen the post considerably beyond their present fragile state. Substitute a metal arm of the MSE type with the pivot wire already attached for the Ratio plastic arm and you'd have a considerable improvement for a modest increase in price.

Regards,
John Webb
 

·
Paul Hamilton aka &quot;Lancashire Fusilier&quot;
Joined
·
844 Posts
QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 13 May 2008, 17:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi There.
Maybe you could show us with pictures & a brief description what you have done. It might encourage others to have a go. I'm sure people would try it if they knew where to start.



I have been taking photos at each step of the construction so I would be more than happy to show them for what they are worth however I don't know how to post them on here for you to see!!

Didn't quite get the signal finished last night but was able to fit the axle for the balance weight and file that all nicely with some new needle files from Richard (thanks mate!) and also fitted the lower crank too. Spent most of the evening trying to extract fibreglass fibres out of my fingers (unsuccessfully I might add!) from my burnishing activities on the fret.
 
21 - 40 of 46 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top