Model Railway Forum banner
1 - 20 of 40 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
We have discussed this topic a long time ago and now that I am onto the weathering of the Roco Br44 I want to discuss this topic once again.

For those not familiar with the Roco cardanshaft : On all Roco's 2-10-0 locos ,the motor is in the tender and is tender driven. However, although tender driven, a cardanshaft, which comes out of the tender motor, goes thru the firebox into the loco body, and by the help of some gear system, transmits the torque of the motor to the rear two wheels of the loco making it an all wheel drive loco. Here you can see the front loco gear system with part of the cardanshaft.



Now question is, why on earth did Roco use a system like this?

For one, It looks ugly. A rod comming out off the tender into the firebox !

Secondly, all its counterparts, Fleischmann, liliput which are all tender driven, why did they not use it? The tender drives the loco and all the 2-10-0 wheels of the loco turns perfectly.

My guess is that the loco is not heavy enough to turn the wheels of the loco.

So I have decided to eliminate this system. Took the cardanshaft and all the gears out. Put some more weight inside the loco body and.... Voila !

It works. Negotiates curves and points with no problem.

Now I have the cab interior all to myself. Can put the driver and the fireman inside.

But the question still haunts me. Why didn't Roco think of this ?

Baykal
 

·
is asleep
Joined
·
758 Posts
Good question! Could it be to supply power to more wheels so that the locomotive has more traction and can pull a longer train, since a 2-10-0 is usually used as a freight train? If the tender is properly close coupled then you would not see the shaft anyway so it wouldn't matter then, and you can always slice the legs off the crew!


Do the Roco locomotives have traction tires or not? Perhaps Lilliput and Fleischmann have them on the tenders?
 

·
Just another modeller
Joined
·
9,983 Posts
QUOTE (ebaykal @ 10 May 2008, 22:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>We have discussed this topic a long time ago and now that I am onto the weathering of the Roco Br44 I want to discuss this topic once again. <snip> Now question is, why on earth did Roco use a system like this? <snip>

Baykal

***Hi Baykal

I think there is more to it than that - if it was just a matter of adding weight they'd have done exactly as you did. - tooling for that added drive system costs a lot of money.

Adding the grip of the driving wheels to the tender wheels, adhesion will certainly be better and so pulling power will be improved. I suspect they saw it as a "Roco advantage" for marketing when it was released, and I supect all wheel drive made many people buy this loco instead of the FL etc.....

I do agree its a huge and ugly shaft though - I also make some loco's with tender mounted motor with gearbox and drive in the loco - especially for small prototypes - however I make the drive shaft between the universals with fine spring wire (about 0.5mm) and it is almost invisible - and mount it low as possible so its not seen and the driver and fireman can still fit too!

The shame is... if they'd been clever as they were tooling from new they could have made the drive shaft run below the cab floor / footplate so it would have been almost perfectly hidden / invisible and you'd not have worried about it!

Regards

Richard

however
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
710 Posts
Hi,

This was a Rivarossi innovation and used on a number of there locos, to increase traction.
They also came up with a gearing that would disengage the loco drive when power was turned off and the loco would freewheel as if in neutral gear.
Clever stuff,a shame that these inventive people are no more.

David
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
QUOTE (goedel @ 10 May 2008, 14:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Do the Roco locomotives have traction tires or not? Perhaps Lilliput and Fleischmann have them on the tenders?

Hi Goedel,

Checked my Fleischmann and Liliput loco's. Only the tenders have traction tires just like the Roco ones. i.e no traction tires on the loco driving wheels only on tenders .

Therefore, if Fleischmann and liliput locos driving wheels can run freely when the tender is pushing or pulling, so could the Roco. Ok I admit that Roco has done it to improve the traction and all..but hey, it works without the cardanshaft and I get full access into the cab. I am not planing to haul 20-30 odd rolling stock so now my Preiser lokfuhrer and the fireman are now quite happy.


Baykal
 

·
No Longer Active.
Joined
·
13,319 Posts
QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 10 May 2008, 15:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The shame is... if they'd been clever as they were tooling from new they could have made the drive shaft run below the cab floor / footplate so it would have been almost perfectly hidden / invisible and you'd not have worried about it!

Regards

Richard

however
Hi Richard & Baykal,

Not too sure if the Roco 2-10-0's are all new tooling - we've seen quite a few tender powered only, admitted older models.

If you get enough power onto the track then no problem removing the shaft - however we have seen quite a few long steam locomotives tender driven that have tended to "crab" down the track - maybe another reason Roco took this approach ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Richard,

I am thinking out loud now.

This cardanshaft and all wheel drive saga of Roco. Can it simply be that; to open up a place for a possible decoder they have sacrificed weight and compensated the tractive power of both the tender and loco by creating this system? It looks like it.

Baykal
 

·
No Longer Active.
Joined
·
13,319 Posts
Sorry to but in, but I don't think so - I recently purchased a Roco SNCF 150X that has the cardan shaft & no place for a decoder - maybe the idea was to keep both camps happy - the locomotive drive guys & the tender drive guys (& gals of course).
 

·
Just another modeller
Joined
·
9,983 Posts
QUOTE (ebaykal @ 13 May 2008, 02:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Richard,

I am thinking out loud now.

This cardanshaft and all wheel drive saga of Roco. Can it simply be that; to open up a place for a possible decoder they have sacrificed weight and compensated the tractive power of both the tender and loco by creating this system? It looks like it.

Baykal

***Anythings possible but I really do think it was simply a traction issue and an opprtunity to add a "roco sales benefit" for a version of a loco prototype that I presume was made by several brands - making decoder space is no big deal if its planned well in advance, and is certainly less complex and expensive than engineering a complex drive system with two different gear ratios (because loco and tender wheels are different sizes) that flexes between two moving items like loco and tender.

David... I have seen the Rivarossi tender motor/loco drive system but not tender + loco drive - which RR loco's used this multiple drive system?

Richard
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
QUOTE (Brian Considine @ 13 May 2008, 00:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sorry to but in, but I don't think so - I recently purchased a Roco SNCF 150X that has the cardan shaft & no place for a decoder - maybe the idea was to keep both camps happy - the locomotive drive guys & the tender drive guys (& gals of course).

Brian Hi,

I have fitted a loksound decoder into it. The decoder goes on top of the motor inside the tender just below the coal section.
Problem is with the loudspeaker. Below the roof of the cab


Baykal
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
710 Posts
Richard,

I thought we were discussing the use of a cardanshaft to drive the loco wheels from a tender mounted motor.
Examples DB class 10 for one!
I used this type of drive in my scratchbuilding/kit building days (Southern Region) it proved to be very effective in the small boiler types and the Q1/Milholme Merchant Navy locos.
The whole of the Loco boiler was filled with fishing shot and the tender had a large Paxon flywheeled motor and boy could they strut there stuff. alas a long time ago, got some good prices for them when sold

Sorry for any confussion.

David
 

·
Just another modeller
Joined
·
9,983 Posts
QUOTE (adecoaches26point4 @ 13 May 2008, 19:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Richard,

I thought we were discussing the use of a cardanshaft to drive the loco wheels from a tender mounted motor.
Examples DB class 10 for one!
I used this type of drive in my scratchbuilding/kit building days (Southern Region) it proved to be very effective in the small boiler types and the Q1/Milholme Merchant Navy locos.
The whole of the Loco boiler was filled with fishing shot and the tender had a large Paxon flywheeled motor and boy could they strut there stuff. alas a long time ago, got some good prices for them when sold

Sorry for any confussion.

David

**No problem David - I too use them to gain traction in smaller loco's - just doing exactly that if some Brassmasters 4F's at the moment - I tend to use a length of spring steel wire for a shaft though - its just about invisible if the transmission is low and as you said, it makes a world of difference being able to pack the boiler with lead instead of a motor!

Richard
 

·
No Longer Active.
Joined
·
13,319 Posts
QUOTE (ebaykal @ 13 May 2008, 11:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Brian Hi,

I have fitted a loksound decoder into it. The decoder goes on top of the motor inside the tender just below the coal section.
Problem is with the loudspeaker. Below the roof of the cab


Baykal

Hi Baykal,

I've put the decoder in the same place with mine - tempory an old Lenz 1025 for now but will a Bachmann later (they are ESU anyway & only retail for £11 !).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
...found the answer to the thread question.

The weathering process of the Br44 is taking place.

I have striped all the loco down:



There is one interesting spot on the below loco body which caught my attention for some time but really couldn't figure out its function not until stripping it down completely. Its the part below:



The grills say it all. Guess what fits in there exactly ?



So it looks like, and its safe to say that; Roco sacrificed weight, compensated it with the cardanshaft to open up a space for a loudspeaker.

Baykal
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
Another vintage post but of specific interest.

My Roco 01(?) no 63342 has been damaged. Part of the Cardan drive from the tender to the locomotive wheels has been broken.

I have asked Roco for some spares though I'm not convinced even if I can get them whether a repair will be effective.

I have read in a couple of topics that removing the Cardan shaft and the gearing in the locomotive would still give me a working locomotive. The tender has traction tyres on 2 axles of the four.

Does anyone have this locomotive please and what are their thoughts about removing the Cardan drive?

Sarah Winfield
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
354 Posts
I think The Br 57 and BR 58 run pretty good only With tender drive, but before you try this you wanna make sure no bits are in the dangerzone of falling off due to the lack off the Cardan shaft.
The loco will also have better propulsion if you remove the front drivetrain thats not needed but this can be done after testrunning.
I have not tried this on a loco before, only speaking from a Mechanical wiev here, so do not know all parts involved on Your specific loco.
Bet some others here know dough:)
Cheers JC
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,847 Posts
Why does this photo of the drive system on the loco scream "fit a motor to me please"??



Well, it does to me at least.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
354 Posts
Edit Sarah You need to remove the brass screw in adition before a test drive but the best would of coarse be to remove all of the gears.
JC
 
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Top