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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This question managed to get my head bitten off on another part of the froum with no useful assistance but I'd still like to pursue it.

Why?

Because I'd like to consider building an HO scale, realistic model of an EU Prototype but dislike the larger flanges used on EU made/designed models. Please understand this is NOT negative to EU models or modellers.. almost every EU loco I see is well designed and made, and has a really nice mechanism... except for the overscale wheels.

Question 1
Which brands which make immediately pre & post WW2 German Steam loco's use finer flanges, preferably approaching NMRA RP25-88 or similar dimensiions

Question 2
I'm aware of superb quality brass loco's such as Micro Metakit so there must be a range of small suppliers, however I do not know them. Are there any EU based sources of correct high quality replacement wheelsets for HO scale lcomotives.

Regards

Richard
 

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i saw the brickbats on the other thread, Richard...and am amazed.

I have commented therein.....and I tend not to worry myself over treading on people's toes.

I await a helpful answer from our european colleagues....

I await a surprise!
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 27 Aug 2007, 03:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This question managed to get my head bitten off on another part of the froum with no useful assistance but I'd still like to pursue it.

Why?

Because I'd like to consider building an HO scale, realistic model of an EU Prototype but dislike the larger flanges used on EU made/designed models. Please understand this is NOT negative to EU models or modellers.. almost every EU loco I see is well designed and made, and has a really nice mechanism... except for the overscale wheels.

Question 1
Which brands which make immediately pre & post WW2 German Steam loco's use finer flanges, preferably approaching NMRA RP25-88 or similar dimensiions

Question 2
I'm aware of superb quality brass loco's such as Micro Metakit so there must be a range of small suppliers, however I do not know them. Are there any EU based sources of correct high quality replacement wheelsets for HO scale lcomotives.

Regards

Richard

Hi Richard,

I had a look at your posts on another part of this forum and can see why you had to duck for cover
Hope you will feel safer on this side.

On a serious note however - I understand your concerns about the wheelsets of German Steam locomotives and would like to share my experience with different types of wheelsets. Maybe this will shed some light on the subject and calm the storm.

What I have to say about wheelsets applies to locomotives and rolling stock. You can not replace the wheels of a loco without replacing the wheels of your rolling stock.

Most models of European locomotives and rolling stock from today's European manufactures come fitted with the NEM standard wheelsets and can run on Code 75 track. The same can be said about the American models although most of these models are fitted with RP25-88 or similar wheels.

RP25-88 or similar wheels have become very popular with American modellers in recent years, although it has not the same following amongst European modellers.

I have had experience with both types of wheels. I am a member of an operating group of an American type layout. All locos and rolling stock are fitted with RP25-88 or similar wheels and runs on meticulously laid Peco Code 100 track, points (switches) and double slips. During operating sessions we sometimes experience some annoying derailments especially over the double slips. We came to the conclusion that the RP25-88 flanges are just not deep enough to keep the locos and rolling stock on track unless the train moves very slowly through the double slip. It was also found that the American models of rolling stock are in general lighter than models of similar European rolling stock which also aggrevates the derailment problem.

On the other hand I was a member of modular club operaring in HO-scale. I had modules with a large German station. All tracks, points and double slips were Peco Code 100. The station had 5 lines running through it necessitating the use of 3 double slips. Almost all the locomotives and rolling stock including some American stock were fitted with the NEM standard type wheels. Derailments were kept to a minimum and were usually caused by human error (as in real life
) We all know that a derailment during an exhibition can be embarrasing and very annoying.

Maybe the fact that NEM standard wheels give less problems than RP25-88 wheels has convinced the European manufacturers to stay with the NEM standards.

Whether to use RP25-88 wheels or NEM standard wheels is a personal choice. Degrading a model will not make the choice easier.

Do this test. Take two similar items of rolling stock and fit the one with RP25-88 wheels or similar and the other with NEM standard wheels. Now place it on a piece of track and stand a metre away. Can you REALLY AND HONESTLY see the difference in the wheels


We are happy to accept a model of a loco that is maybe a millimeter to short or a model of a building or structure that has been selectively compressed so that it will fit on our layouts. But when the subject of wheels are mentioned, it causes quite a stir amongst forum members. Aren't we starting to do some rivet counting and take the pleasure out of the hobby


I know that some of the forum members have distanced themselves from Richard, but it will be interesting to have the comments of our experienced modellers on this subject.

RP25-88 wheels or NEM standard wheels
Do not allow this to derail the hobby.

Remember - Model trains is a lifelong hobby where all tracks lead to good friends


Kind regards.

Johan
 

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re RP and NEM wheel profiles, and performance.

[i]The real issue is appearance.[/i]

the depth of flange has developed in order to seek reliability of running in all environments.

as a result, there are compromises on appearance. (I note, historically, little is done to reduce the VISUAL effect?)

the concerns over reliability of running?

well, wheel standards are not applied in isolation.

They travel hand-in -glove with track standards.

By that, I refer to things like check rail dimensions.

Derailments in regular places (like double slips) point to track dimensions issues rather than wheel problems.

extending the flange size is a quick-fix which doesn't solve the problem.

especially as the flange isn't there to keep the wheel on the rail............in the prototype, as well as the finer track/wheel disciplines like, Proto-87, SCalefour, etc...however, the flange is seen by makers as a tool to simply promote reliable running, on trackwork they have no control over.

Another unhelpful aspect of derailments concerns the actual chassis design of the vehicles concerned.

This affects most likely, the sorts of radius of curve the vehicle is happy on.

That CAN include, very short curved areas like point closure rails, etc.

so, for running reliability, I look to back-to-back, although that too is a fudge...the ideal, is the check rail dimension on the wheelset..ie, distance from, back of flange, to outside of opposite flange.
this must match the track checkrail dimensions........if they do, then flange depth itself can be seriously reduced...[coning of wheel tread keeps things on track...flanges actually limit minimum radius comfortably negotiated]

In the past, I have noticed too many unwanted variations in proprietory track/turnout makes...peco, atlas, whatever.

The only guarenteed solution is to make one's own...which is often impractical.

Shinohara track always gave me the best reliability regarding derailments.....however, it does have other, operating drawbacks.

I think one problem, concerning proprietary track, is over the years, things like checkrail dimensions have altered.

and one IS loath to throw away a turnout that might cost 20 or 30 pounds to upgrade?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi, Johann and Alistair - and thanks for taking the time with your posts re wheels. (Yes Alistair, my comment elsewhere on radii was about the marklin layout).

Re the hostile reaction - there's a lot of sensitivity from the various "clans" in the hobby re their models, and I can handle that just fine - perhaps I was a little insensitive in the way I asked the original question. Disappointing though.

What always surprises me is that whilst finescale modellers can be a right royal pain in the B** sometimes with their pedantic approach, RTR modellers always seem to attack the person, never the models... I can never figure that one out.

Johann - re the end of your post - yes, I can see the difference in flange quite clearly - but more importantly, I know they are there.

Stripping a loco and changing wheels doesn't faze me, but knowing where they can be bought is important, as my lathe work isn't up to creating wheels from scratch, and I do like them to be correct. Hence this thread - and the question. Hopefully someone will be able to point me to a source, and if not, I'll just have to do the research.

Re derailments:
The problem I've seen with most off the shelf pointwork is that its simply not well designed, with checkrails that don't check and over large flangeway gaps, so derailments are reasonably common on complex formations. Even then though, adjusting back to flange or backs of wheels will often fix the problem...providing its done for the specific wheel profile - not with one generic BTB measurement

(Yes Alistair, I agree 100% with your comment re back-to-flange root - with this in mind, depending on wheel profile, I use a BTB of between 14.75 and 14.95.)

I find no issues with wider BTB and radii down to 30" - can't answer for tighter curves though, but I suspect no issue above 24"

Interestingly, I've found on friends layouts <I won't use Peco> that even on standard Peco code 75, 14.75 + current B&H wheels gives markedly smoother running)

I think this issue of back to back does more to cause problems than the flange issue really - if the BTB isn't right, the wheels hunt left and right and generally don't track properly.

Re this whole wheelsets issue...

Just to qualify where I come from modelling wise, I am a reasonably competent loco builder who can also paint and line as needed, so I build most of my own steam loco's but I only rarely bother with diesels as they are way after my preferred modelling period and anyway, are also mostly just fine with simple wheel conversion and a little added detail.

I build much of the rolling stock too, but restrict that to what I need to build, as newer releases are just fine when they are to a usable diagramme - ie the current Hornby Staniers.

I still either adjust or replace most wheelsets though, and actually replace the actual wheel carrying part of the bogie on even the H Staniers, keeping only their sideframes which are actually very nice.

I use 1mm flangeways in all the turnouts I build, whether for HO, "UK narrow gauge 16.5" or wider in 4mm scale - thats essentially the EM standard, but I do compromise it slightly on K crossings of slips to about 0.8. The compromised 0.8 in fact is only with 16.5mm gauge slips, as to make them in 16.5 to a reasonably soft angle (# 8 or #9) leaves very little room.

Johann... I note your comment on weight... usually weight all my rolling stock - many who pick them up seem to find them heavy but with free rolling wheelsets in brass bearings it does not compromise train sizes.

Wheel wise, I run much of my smaller 4 wheel rolling stock on wheels with P4/S4 flanges and find no negatives with trackholding at all - as with my US models, which are usually to RP25-88 or finer. Interestingly the current H and B loco wheels are to a very nice standard driver-wise, but I still find their pony truck wheels a little too heavy looking.

Kindest regards

Richard
 

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Folks.

I will not comment on the other goings on else where.
I use the wheel sets supplied by Weinert to replace my wheels on both Locos and rolling stock.
You have a choice of NEM or RP25 profiles.
If you intend to go down this route,a full set for a large loco will be around £100 plus.
By the by I run RP25 on my code 100 track.
ADE coaches come with RP25 wheels and fully equalising bogies.
I have had watch makers locos over the years,wonderful to look at,but not so attractive with a prototype train in tow,all sold.

Answers to Question 1 & 2=Weinert.

Cheers,

David
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi again Johann

One comment you made that I missed with my last post:
Quote "But when the subject of wheels are mentioned, it causes quite a stir amongst forum members. Aren't we starting to do some rivet counting and take the pleasure out of the hobby"

My thought:
Its not the scale modellers who scream - its usually the RTR modellers, and I genuinely don't understand why.
So I do wonder, who is taking away the pleasure?

I genuinely see the differences between modellers as part of the richness of the hobby. It also allows learning and evolution, as does the very diverse nature of prototypes modelled.

I think it is important for all to realise that while one modeller may prefer to build his loco's etc and be, to him, more accurate, and another may simply enjoy running trains out of the box ...both are simply enjoying the hobby the way they want to, and as neither actively stops the other doing it the way they want to and so why are both not equally correct.

I am a builder who likes accuracy, but can honestly say that I have never been guilty of damning a modeller who wants to just run RTR products, however I DO see the term rivet counter used as a curse rather than anything else. As I said earlier, I will often criticise models I think are lacking in quality or accuracy but very rarely criticise the modelling of others - or the others who model differently.

In fact I actually teach many modelling subjects - not because I think everyone should do as I do, but because I know that every now and again, a new skill learned will expand the whole pleasure of the hobby for the modeller.

A good example: Among other things, I teach soldering (every type needed for modelling, with every material used). The biggest smile I get in some classes is when I show how to make a quick, easy, reliable & stress free job of soldering wire to rails.

I don't actually put it in the syllabus as nobody ever admits they find it hard, but introduce it as an example that I then ask them to duplicate.... and it can be the biggest smile I see from many students as a weight has lifted off their hobby shoulders - because most actually hate that part of layout building but would never admit to their peers they had trouble with it!

So... back to the beginning: Personally I'd like to see the label RIVET COUNTER banned: It derides pleasure in skill and accuracy.

If modellers of any quality or leaning, skilled or not, unfairly or unresonably criticise or put down the pleasure of others they are equally bad for the hobby, and that has nothing to do with detail levels preferred! They are simply being stupid.

Kind Regards

Richard
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
QUOTE (adecoaches26point4 @ 27 Aug 2007, 23:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Folks.

I will not comment on the other goings on else where.
I use the wheel sets supplied by Weinert to replace my wheels on both Locos and rolling stock.
You have a choice of NEM or RP25 profiles.
If you intend to go down this route,a full set for a large loco will be around £100 plus.
By the by I run RP25 on my code 100 track.
ADE coaches come with RP25 wheels and fully equalising bogies.
I have had watch makers locos over the years,wonderful to look at,but not so attractive with a prototype train in tow,all sold.

Answers to Question 1 & 2=Weinert.

Cheers,

David
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
David
You said: I use the wheel sets supplied by Weinert to replace my wheels on both Locos and rolling stock.
You have a choice of NEM or RP25 profiles. If you intend to go down this route,a full set for a large loco will be around £100 plus.

THANK YOU! Thats a great reference, exactly what i was looking for. The first page I came to included a related look at one of their kits too, and they look superb too! I really am doomed now I think, as I'd happily tackle one or two of their locos rather than buy RTR.

sincere thanks, and fingers crossed for a few more as useful as that!

Richard
 

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Sorry mean't to add.
If you really want to go to town,Scale nickle silver valvegear and scale coupling rods,beautiful.
This is not one of mine,but shows Weinert quality.
DB class 01.10 Express passenger Loco.

Enjoy.

David
 

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QUOTE (adecoaches26point4 @ 27 Aug 2007, 16:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sorry mean't to add.
If you really want to go to town,Scale nickle silver valvegear and scale coupling rods,beautiful.
This is not one of mine,but shows Weinert quality.
DB class 01.10 Express passenger Loco.

Enjoy.

David

I'm not really into German stuff, no that's a lie, I'm not into German stuff in any scale from 1:1 down. But damn that's one fine looking model

Richard, glad you got the help you were after
 

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Robert, if you want to convert Euro coaches (or freight cars) to RP25 as well, Luck would be a manufacturer you´d want to check out. They also have P87 wheels there. If you are interested in those, "HO pur" would be the buzzword to look for.

Also, some 20 years ago, MP Finescale made conversion kits for a lot of continental European models as well. The company is afaik no longer in existance, but leftovers from their production can be bought here.

Maybe these links are helpful, too!


The websites are in German, so feel free to ask if you have any questions. And no, I am in no way connected to either company. *sigh* unfortunately...
 

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QUOTE So... back to the beginning: Personally I'd like to see the label RIVET COUNTER banned: It derides pleasure in skill and accuracy.

If modellers of any quality or leaning, skilled or not, unfairly or unresonably criticise or put down the pleasure of others they are equally bad for the hobby, and that has nothing to do with detail levels preferred! They are simply being stupid.

The term rivet counter really applies to a militant hardcore who are more interested in asserting their primacy in the model rail world, which I'm sure you're not doing, rather than as a lable for those keen on skill and accuracy. There's nothing wrong with pleasure in skill and accuracy as most would agree. However, I often see people trying to use their extensive knowledge of prototypical accuracy to assert superiority over other modellers and it is this aspect of "rivet counting" which people find offensive. Personally I don't mind it as long as it doesn't get too self indulgent and you don't use your knowledge to contradict everything that other modellers say. I say self indulgent as the average modeller wouldn't care if a rivet was missing and really wouldn't know until he is enlightened that his model is a poor one because of the missing rivet.

It's like using the term "train set modeller" to deride people who prefer having fun playing with trains which is the other extreme. But then again I suppose I am a "train set modeller" as I have no time for RP25 wheels. I find they lead to derailments. I actually prefer the NEM ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi Neill

Its interesting how labels get attached, and then become adjectives to beat each other up with isn't it. I think we actually do it to ourselves.

Regarding the term Rivet counter, the pedant who finds fault in anything is in all parts of every hobby - not just trains: My point is that wanting to get detail right isn't a problem, and wanting to learn is a good thing. Using knowledge as a weapon never is.

I always think its OK to comment negaitvely on a model, but never to attack the person or his modelling, which if he's taken the trouble to show you, is always going to be something that to him, is nice.

I can assure you that I, as a modeller who likes to add lots of fine detail I have exactly the same attitude to the "criticise everything" idiots as you do - but perhaps I have more reason to be angry with them, because I can usually tell when he's a mouth with lots of knowledge but no skills. This sort of twit is thankfully much more common in the finer scales. They are usually skill-less "armchair modellers" who couldn't do as well as those they criticise do anyway, and should just be ignored.

I still think the term should be banned :) :). Lablels aren't useful as they create divisions...

Examples:
You call yourself a trainset modeller... actually, I think thats a self-deprecating comment.

For example, I noted your own comment on the excellent presentation of the castings for York Station that you'd happily adopt that style for your viaduct, yet you term yourself a "trainset modeller" while I'd term you simply a modeller.

In my case I simply set, for ME, my own standards that I like to follow and certainly never demand others take my path:

However I do always offer to teach or show those who express interest in what I do. Because I like to try to get it "right" I do lots of research on loco's I build and if I can make it correct, I do... but I do it for ME, and nobody else...

Does that make me a rivet counter or just a modeller who sees the same picture from different viewpoint to someone who is happy to simply run loco's out of the box? Personally I think I am simply a modeller too.

We are just different in approach.

As to RP25, Proto87, S4 or any other flange, none of them really create or encourage derailments -

It is the relationship of wheel to rail that does that, influenced by the quality of tracklaying and pointwork standards etc. Some trackwork is simply better than others for each type...some can be bothered, some can't. I see the flanges and an issue but you don't: I choose to build my own track to accommodate my preference, you are happy to run NEM on Peco code or similar.

That too is just choice, and both are just fine as long as we both enjoy our modelling.

Kindest regards

Richard Johnson

[/quote]
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi ME 26-26 and thank you - another excellent reference thats really useful. I knew there'd have to be some good sources hidden away that I hadn't seen. I really can feel a Deutsch Reichsbann layout coming on sometime soon... I really do need a positive distraction from the larger layout!

Richard

PS - Roberts a fine name, but I think my dear very old mum would prefer that I stay as Richard :)

Robert, if you want to convert Euro coaches (or freight cars) to RP25 as well, Luck would be a manufacturer you´d want to check out. They also have P87 wheels there. If you are interested in those, "HO pur" would be the buzzword to look for.

Also, some 20 years ago, MP Finescale made conversion kits for a lot of continental European models as well. The company is afaik no longer in existance, but leftovers from their production can be bought here.

Maybe these links are helpful, too!


The websites are in German, so feel free to ask if you have any questions. And no, I am in no way connected to either company. *sigh* unfortunately...


[/quote]
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 29 Aug 2007, 15:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Neill

Its interesting how labels get attached, and then become adjectives to beat each other up with isn't it. I think we actually do it to ourselves.

Regarding the term Rivet counter, the pedant who finds fault in anything is in all parts of every hobby - not just trains: My point is that wanting to get detail right isn't a problem, and wanting to learn is a good thing. Using knowledge as a weapon never is.

You're very right there, people like that are in every hobby.

I always think its OK to comment negaitvely on a model, but never to attack the person or his modelling, which if he's taken the trouble to show you, is always going to be something that to him, is nice.

Couldn't agree more.

I can assure you that I, as a modeller who likes to add lots of fine detail I have exactly the same attitude to the "criticise everything" idiots as you do - but perhaps I have more reason to be angry with them, because I can usually tell when he's a mouth with lots of knowledge but no skills. This sort of twit is thankfully much more common in the finer scales. They are usually skill-less "armchair modellers" who couldn't do as well as those they criticise do anyway, and should just be ignored.

I still think the term should be banned :) :). Lablels aren't useful as they create divisions...

Examples:
You call yourself a trainset modeller... actually, I think thats a self-deprecating comment.

For example, I noted your own comment on the excellent presentation of the castings for York Station that you'd happily adopt that style for your viaduct, yet you term yourself a "trainset modeller" while I'd term you simply a modeller.

Labels aren't good. I referred to myself as a train set modeller as a reference to a spat between a sometime member of this forum and a frequent user of this forum. Basically the part time guy was giving the regular a slagging about being a trainset guy because he did something or other which he was beneath his personal high standards of modelling. I found this unbeleivable as the regular has shown examples of his work frequently on this forum and it is of a very high standard indeed. Admittedly the other guys work is also of a high standard and has won awards but it was this attempt at putting down the other guy by calling him a train set modeller that got me. I figured that I would pick up my yellow star and be a train set modeller too rather than belong to anything associated with such superior atitudes. I have avoided mentioning names as I may well meet the superior guy at some point in the near future and could do without a smack in the mouth. I also wanted some tips on scenery from him too as his is very good.

In my case I simply set, for ME, my own standards that I like to follow and certainly never demand others take my path:

However I do always offer to teach or show those who express interest in what I do. Because I like to try to get it "right" I do lots of research on loco's I build and if I can make it correct, I do... but I do it for ME, and nobody else...

Does that make me a rivet counter or just a modeller who sees the same picture from different viewpoint to someone who is happy to simply run loco's out of the box? Personally I think I am simply a modeller too.

We are just different in approach.

As to RP25, Proto87, S4 or any other flange, none of them really create or encourage derailments -

It is the relationship of wheel to rail that does that, influenced by the quality of tracklaying and pointwork standards etc. Some trackwork is simply better than others for each type...some can be bothered, some can't. I see the flanges and an issue but you don't: I choose to build my own track to accommodate my preference, you are happy to run NEM on Peco code or similar.

This hits the nail on the head. RP25 is suited to a particular type of track whereas the NEM wheels are suited to a different type of track. I designed my new layout specifically to avoid derailments and to accomodate wheels such as RP25 and US articulated steam prototype which is not designed for tight curves. I prefer not to have RP25 wheels but sometimes you cannot avoid them as everything US has them and I just love huge articulated steam locos. I have not had any problems at all with any type of wheel now. I just think that for the new modeller who has not learned to lay accurate track they will encounter more difficulty with this type of wheel than the wide flange type.

That too is just choice, and both are just fine as long as we both enjoy our modelling.

Kindest regards
Richard Johnson

Thanks for your reply


Neil
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
David: Thank you - more really useful stuff I'd never have found. I really am doomed now :) :). In particular, my British modelling friends will kill me!

As to welcome to HO - I did model US for a while, but I'm really looking forward to a foray into European HO - it'll be a whole new field to learn about, and I really love to expand my horizons.

Without wishing to be too demanding on info - Another couple of questions if I may - as I'll have to buy most books on the subject from across the world, who are the best of the english language retailers or publishers of EU railway history / reference works, and is there any particular "hands on modeller / finer scale oriented" magazine that I should perhaps subscribe to?

Kindest regards

Richard
 

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Richard (not Robert, sorry about that),

I think that the literature bit will highly depend on the theme you´ll want to model.

If you can narrow that down a bit, then maybe I can look out for something to read for you.

There are several German and French language magazines out there which I really like - Eisenbahn Kurier, Eisenbahn-Magazin, MIBA, HP1 (finescale!) ome to mind from Germany, Loki from Switzerland, Loco Revue and Voies Ferees from France, too. Eisenbahn Journal is good imho, too, and they have great specials on certain (mainly prototype) topics. None of them, however, is in English.

Many Eisenbahn-Kurier-DVDs are often bilingual, German and English. You may want to check out www.eisenbahn-kurier.de and have a look.
 

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Just picking up on this thread - QUOTE well, wheel standards are not applied in isolation.

They travel hand-in -glove with track standards.

By that, I refer to things like check rail dimensions.

Derailments in regular places (like double slips) point to track dimensions issues rather than wheel problems.

extending the flange size is a quick-fix which doesn't solve the problem.

especially as the flange isn't there to keep the wheel on the rail............in the prototype, as well as the finer track/wheel disciplines like, Proto-87, SCalefour, etc..

I'd strongly agree.

Peco code 100 ,and code 75 is quite simply too coarse for its own good - hence the problems. It isn't properly matched to RP25/110 wheel sets , never mind RP25/88 - hence certain aspects of OO track debates.

You need track to authentic NMRA standard , which will certainly work well with RP25/110 , and will mitigate the problem with RP25/88 (I don't know of any ready made track that is fine enough for RP25/88)

From an engineering point of view , the new Peco code83Line will deliver reliable running with RP25/110 , though the sleepering is a bit tight for Europe.I would assume the likes of Shinohara code 83 and Atlas are the same, though again these are a bit American. Roco track does seem to be made to NMRA standard. I cannot vouch for Tillig , which might be worth investigating (and in this area, above all , never comment unless you have personally verified the dimensions by measuring an actual point....), or Piko or any of the other Continental brands .

RP25/110 will certainly give a substantial improvement on coarse NEM wheels , even if its not as pretty as the finescale RP25/88, and they are much more likely to be readily available. One pain is the different axle lengths - I think InterCity Models and Replica in the UK do wheels on shorter axles for replacing Lima wheels
 
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