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Hi John, Reddo and All!
Thanks for that wonderful picture of 194 145 - what a lovely sight! I really must like the E94 as I have DB 194 178 (the only blue one!), two DDR 254s and two OBB 1020s and still want more! I need a couple of DB green ones and possibly a pre war one too.
Not greedy, I just like a lot!!
I have quite a strong interest in early electric locos too so your images of the E16 and E18 are very welcome and I must agree about the handsomeness of the OBB 1044, I love them. One of my themes of interest is southern Germany in era IV with such dinosaurs as E52 and E91 still running alongside blue & cream coaching stock and much more modern machines like the BR103, drool, drool.
Cheers,
John.
 

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Yes John, Epoch IV in southern Germany were certainly interesting times. My scans will very soon bring to life some of what I observed to the north but first I thought I would stray towards the Bodensee (Lake Constance). More specifically Lindau where three railways met, OBB, SBB and DB. This will also give me a chance to redress the ELok bias that hitherto has been evident in this topic.

Lindau is basically an island reached by a causeway. Once famous for the presence of both Bavarian and Baden-Württemberg pacific steam locomotives which, with the merger of state railways into Deutsche Reichsbahn in 1920 gradually became variations of Class 18. By the time I came along in the 1980's (Epoch IV) Lindau was served by non-electrified routes in Germany but the line through to Bregenz in Austria and thence to Switzerland was electrified ......... so this was a place for DB DLoks plus OBB & SBB ELoks.


Lindau Hbf 02/04/1988 at 13:03. 218 436-4 maneuvers from the depot, onto the causeway to then set back onto a train in the station.
For those interested in the technicalities of photography I see that I noted that I shot this with my Cpntax 159MM fitted with a 35mm Zeiss lens - aperture of f3.5 and speed of 1000. Kodachrome 64.




Lindau Depot is shown on the above Stadtplan as the kickback siding right at the bottom of the island. The depot, seen here again on the 02/04/1988 hosts diesel shunter 332 221-1 with a few Class 218 beyond.


Lindau Depot. A further view on the same day with a range of Class 218.

Goodness me, a post with no ELoks.

Best regards ............. Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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I have a photo taken last year (2019) showing a couple of 218s stabled on the sidings to the top right of the station. The next siding had an SBB 421 in Cargo livery.

Apart from being a very pretty town, the other thing that sticks in my memory about Lindau is that it has the only lighthouse in Bavaria.

David
 

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So Lindau is still a place of interest David. My wife and I once toured by car (shame on me) the circumference of the Bodensee and stayed at Lindau for, I think 4 nights. Lindau is indeed in Bavaria as the hotel staff were very proud to point out. The dinner time delicacy that took my fancy was a Pflaumenknödel (plum dumpling) which was claimed to be of Bavarian culinary origin. Shades of Mandy Rice Davies thought I but regardless of its Bavarian uniqueness it did taste good.


Yes David .......... the famous lighthouse.



Back to ELoks. Lindau Hbf 02/04/1988 and SBB Re 4/4 11196 arrives with a train from Zurich.



OBB Class 1110 number 519-4 backs onto SBB stock. Just why an Austrian loco was scheduled to haul a Swiss train I did not at the time attempt to fathom out.

I read from my 1989 published OBB Platform 5 book that 1110 519-4 was based at Bludenz ostensibly for working mountainous lines.


Yest more questions. OBB Class 1044 locos, the train consist being 1044 087-3 + 1 coach + 1044 101-2 + 5 coaches.

I presume that this train splits somewhere en route but I have to admit that I did not try to understand what was going on.


Finally, back to the depot for a final look.

I have included this photo because it gives me the chance to mention the perils that can beset a railway photographer. In the photo you can see the red benches that line the lakeside walk that separates the depot from the water. I was standing on the back of one of those benches, bracing my mid-riff on the top of the fence which was chain link heavily grown over by a sharp and prickly hedge. Yes, read it and weep. I became hopelessly stuck and with one hand holding my precious camera I was finding it impossible to extricate myself. I think by this point I was standing on one leg and fast losing the battle when a middle aged German couple kindly offered their help. I handed over the camera and managed to untangle myself with both hands now free. Once on the ground and re-united with my camera I thanked them profusely and I have wondered since what they made of that odd Englishman they bumped into whilst holidaying in Lindau. How many times might they have told this story at dinner parties.

On that note ...............

Best regards ............... Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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Great stuff John, keep it coming.
Although my primary interest on the modelling side is steam, I find this very interesting.
Regards
Alan
 

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Thank you Alan ............ there will be some steam locomotives as we progress through the slides. I am resisting the urge to jump ahead of myself but we will eventually arrive at some dampf aktion.

Forgive me for going back on myself but I came across another slide of the Class 194 outside Munich BW. I remembered taking a second shot which included a passing Class 103. A bit blurry but I liked it because it reminded me of a Turner painting but this time it was not the old timer that was faded:


194 145-9. 05/04/1988 Bahnbetriebswerk München Hbf being passed by 103 147-5

Sometimes a photograph can be technically imperfect yet still be of interest .............. to me anyway.

Best regards ................. Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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faded and even a bit out of focus doesn't matter at all when it is historical evidence.


It would be great if you could explain the signals a bit... like the stripy thing in the latest shot... Would I be right in thinking it's a position light ground/shunt signal?

One thing that occurs to me as interesting - is that what I take to be the "Signalbox"/tower has a clock on it - which our signalboxes didn't do... Which goes with the fact that our footplate crew didn't carry company watches. In fact they resisted their introduction (ASLEF initially refused the Timex watches IIRC). The argument was that the guards were in charge of trains and they had company pocket watches.
Then my brain trundles on and thinks... "so how did light engine crews know when to set off - e.g. to collect an ECS... ?

 

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QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 26 Jul 2020, 11:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>faded and even a bit out of focus doesn't matter at all when it is historical evidence.


It would be great if you could explain the signals a bit... like the stripy thing in the latest shot... Would I be right in thinking it's a position light ground/shunt signal?

One thing that occurs to me as interesting - is that what I take to be the "Signalbox"/tower has a clock on it - which our signalboxes didn't do... Which goes with the fact that our footplate crew didn't carry company watches. In fact they resisted their introduction (ASLEF initially refused the Timex watches IIRC). The argument was that the guards were in charge of trains and they had company pocket watches.
Then my brain trundles on and thinks... "so how did light engine crews know when to set off - e.g. to collect an ECS... ?



Perhaps the Signaller, had a clock in his Box??


Julian
 

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Thank you Bear and Julian for your comments.

On the clock issue I have to say that in the 194 + 103 photograph the building to which you refer is not exactly a signal box; I believe that it is more a depot yard control centre. I of course stand ready to be corrected but the clock is therefore a yard clock which i don't think is that uncommon. I will of course keep my eye open for signal boxes equipped with publicly viewable clocks as we progress through my collection.

Now what about that strange yellow and black chevron ground signal? I have 5 books devoted to German railway signalling and not one of them provided any explanation or had an illustration that might be of use. Eyes weary from gazing at endless book illustrations I sat in my garden trying to forget all about it, cool glass in hand and enjoying hearing about the exploits of one Stuart Broad on my headphones ............... but then I suddenly thought, "I've seen a signal similar to that on another slide I have scanned". So, rushed upstairs to my study and cursering through my most recent scans and there it was:


Braunschweig Hauptbahnhof 06/04/1988 at 10:03. 634 627-4 waits to depart for Hameln flanked by battery unit 515 528-8.

Notice that yellow and black chevron "signal" now raised high on a post. I think the clue is in its location. It is obviously located in the middle of a long platform that is operationally split so that it can be occupied by two trains within the same block section. I think that it is what I think of as a "permissive signal" which can be passed if the road ahead is not occupied. What do you think Bear?

This theory also works in the Munich depot photo as a loco can arrive but can only proceed with caution if the road ahead is clear ............ or ........... might be subject to local rule variations which rely on the driver doing something at that location which is defined by the chevron ............... maybe stop and wait for instructions?

I will keep my eyes open for any ther possibilities or illustrations.

Best regards .............. Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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John,

" strange yellow and black chevron ground signal " It's just the back plate to the ground signal, not a signal!
As to the clock, it's a yard clock, a very common double faced piece of equipment, can also stand on a lattice mast in yards.

Regards
David
 

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I have now found this: An overview of shunting signal SH 0 & SH 1. David's explanation intrigued me.

This is a website devoted to German signalling matters and the above link takes you to the relevant page where, if you pan down a ways you will eventually come across the explanation of why the backside of these signals are painted as yellow and black chevrons. The Google translation says, "Low light blocking signals pose a first-class stumbling hazard for shunter and all other railway workers who walk around in the track area. That's why these “dwarfs” were given a hazard warning on the back".

There must be some very tall railway staff in Braunschweig.

Click on this link to access the DB leaflet that explains it all.

Signalling is indeed a very complex beast.

Best regards ................ Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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Turning back to my scanned slides and for the moment resisting the urge to post more Bahnbetriebswerk München Hbf I thought that it might be of interest if I posted this:


Landshut 05/04/1988 at 09:24. 194 192-1 plus 194 193-9 sit on the depot.

After leaving the Munich depot I retraced my steps back to the Hauptbahnhof where I caught the 08:38 departure for Regensburg (hauled by 111 071-7); the route being via Landshut. I took this photo from my train window as we passed the depot so it is what it is. My notes have it that there were 7 locomotives present around the depot but the only other number that I logged was 194 184-8 (such an anorak). I have been through Landshut since 1988 but only at night so could not compare more recent activity and the types of locomotive that have replaced this obvious stronghold of the Class 194.

My thoughts turn to Google Maps and the excellent satellite views that are available. I don't know how current the image Google image is but it does show a compliment of, once again 7 locomotives. I suspect these to be predominantly Class 152 but I am always open to be corrected by those with more knowledge.


Google Maps satelite image of Bw Landshut.

Best regards .................. Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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Hi John,
Another cracking image of the class 194 ellok there, thanks! I liked the east German name for them - eisenschwine (iron pig!?).
As for the more recent Google image, I cannot tell many modern elloks apart, especially from above but I know that BR152s are quite clean on their roofs so why not?
I can say the larger silver coloured loco, centre right of the image, would appear to be a class 66 diesel however! No getting away from them, is there?
Cheers,
John E.
 

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Thanks for the reply and interpretation John.


A few more interesting signals since then


Back to clocks...

I have not seen many clocks in UK yards/depots. Even Manchester Longsight didn't have one back in 2009... Although it did have an indicator of speed between the down side sheds and the neck.

As for clocks in boxes... Yes - every box had its clock. However - the normal practice around the country was to clear signals when the route was available and this did not signify the time to go. In a few locations there would be a specific instruction for the signal to only be cleared at the departure time. This was unusual. On the other hand there were locations at which it was operationally wise to not clear a route until close, or very close, to time - because setting a particular route could lock up other routes. Also - Footplate crew didn't move on "signalman's instruction" or even guards instruction. They moved when ready and safe to do so. This was an (unwritten) unalterable rule - correction - law. Footplate crew wouldn't delay unnecessarily - they were subject to sanction if they hadn't got good reason for delay - but their decisions were what the whole railway worked around.



PS Thinking about it - I have known a manager knocked unconscious for trying to order a Driver to move his train. The move would have broken very serious rules. Naturally no-one saw it... and when the manager came round he scurried away without a further word. Even that idiot realised that he would only walk into more trouble if he tried to do anything about it. Sometimes practical action is the best.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Your comments are always worth reading Bear. The general principle of the driver being the final arbiter of safe movement is common across all the railway administrations that I have worked with.

Back to clocks ..................


Frankfurt Hbf - more specifically - Stellwerk Frankfurt-Hauptbahnhof - 17/8/89 and 365 720-2 rests between station pilot movements.

Now that is a signal box clock.

Best regards ................. Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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Exactly Bear .............. I don't think that DB consulted British Railway architects for the design of that signal box.

Now for something completely different

I have noticed a tendency of this topic to concentrate on electric locomotives. Whatever the reason for that I thought it might be interesting to occasionally redress the balance so here are a few studies of diesels ............ red ones ........... the proper original red livery.


Tübingen Hauptbahnhof 18/07/1990 at 18:05. 211 286-0 runs through the station en route to the depot.


Tübingen Hauptbahnhof 18/07/1990 at 18:08. 215 139-7 backs onto a train of Silberlingen coaches to become a service to Sigmaringen.


Tübingen Hauptbahnhof 04/08/1986 at 13:55. A view of Gleis 12 occupied by a three car Uerdingen railbus (German: Uerdinger Schienenbus) flanked by 333 011-5.


Tübingen Hauptbahnhof 04/08/1986 at 13:15. This diesel shunter was employed as carriage pilot. Another view of 333 011-5.
Notice that the Silberlingen is painted turquoise at the sole bar level which was a paint scheme adopted in Epoch IV. (Hopefully someone can contribute the correct cut off date). The Epoch III sole bar (for want of a better word) livery was black.

A quick note on the use of the word Gleis

The word Gleis refers to a track number not the platform. This can be confusing at a station like Tübingen which does not have 12 platforms. It gets worse because in Plochingen (the junction station on the Stuttgart <> Ulm mainline where the Tübingen branch diverges) you can board a train at Gleis 55 ......... although in some larger stations a consecutive platform numbering system has been adopted. Perhaps we can explore this in a later post but .......... not just now.

Best regards ............... Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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The photo of the Class 211 in Tübingen set me thinking as I had just scanned in a photo of a Class 212 and i noticed the build variations. So ................


Freight sidings adjacent to Bahnbetriebswerk Hamburg-Eidelstedt - 08/04/1988 and 212 043-4 is at the head of a short trip freight.

This is what can be described as the other end of the loco, the non-radiator end.


Plochingen 11/08/86. The other end - 212 247-1 maneuvering around the freight sidings.

The 211 and 212 classes were, to my eye indistinguishable as the difference was in the uprating of the 212 to 1,350 hp - the 211 was rated at
1,100 hp. The alphabet soup of the engine designation is of countdown conundrum tediocity and I will leave you to look it up if you are that bored with life.

Best regards ................... Greyvoices (alias John)
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
I have now scanned up to slide 800 in my collection and there is still a long way to go. I estimate that some time early in 2021 it may be possible to start scanning my print images from the negatives. It might seem that my journeying was confined to the south but in the last couple of posts the inclusion of images taken in Hamburg and Braunschweig illustrate that I have been a tad selective. I see from the comments that there is an interest in cross border movements, old locomotives that were still in service as Epoch IV turned into Epoch V and signalling. As I was scanning over this last weekend (the start of August 2020) I came across slides 20 taken at Konstanz on the 21st August 1989 and realised that I could satisfy those three interests by posting some of these images. So we are staying in the south for a couple more posts before we head north. We have already seen how three railways feed into Lindau and now, further to the west in Konstanz we encounter the incursion of a Swiss Landerbahn and SBB across the border into Germany. This map might be of help:


Map of railways surrounding Lake Constance (Bodensee) courtesy of nextpng.com


Konstanz Hbf 21/08/1989 at 15:00. SBB Class Ae4/7 number 10926 runs light past Konstanz Hbf signalbox.

Class Ae4/7 was built between 1927 and 1934 and was formerly the principle electric locomotive in Switzerland. The signal cabin is famous as it has a track passing right underneath it and there is a Faller H0 kit that can still be found on eBay.


10926 arriving with a short freight train.


Mittel-Thurgau-Bahn (MThB) Class Re4/4 number 21 waits to leave with a mixed freight flanked by DB 360 526-8


Mittel-Thurgau-Bahn (MThB) Class ABDe4/4 number 12 departs back to Switzerland.


Konstanz DB carriage sidings with Interregio stock and a variety of Class 110, 111, 139 and 141 locomotives.

I was only there for an hour and have never been back there.

Best regards ................. Greyvoices (alias John)
 
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