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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Us British have been using incorrect scale to gauge since OO was introduced, in the 1930's I think. Something to do with the smallest electric motors being too big
to fit in our smaller models.

With CAD development capability, should we now be correcting the OO anomoly and move to the correct scale/gauge combination of HO?

There are so many comments about new models not being exactly correct here and there, but no-one seems to mention that, in each and every case, when viewed head on, the wheels are too close together!

Bob

 

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I have toyed with the idea of British H0 a few times, as 00 looks awful to my eyes. However the the fact that so much is available in 4mm scale has led me to adopt P4 in order to get the correct gauge for my models, I gave up on EM very quickly as it is just too much work.

I do tend to think that the best option for achieving a scale gauge for our models is for commercial models to be produced to H0 scale. There is no reason why it can't be done, if the H0 models are built with the same coupling as 00 models the 2 would be able to be used together on the same layout. While this wouldn't be ideal it would make for a smoother change over from 00 to H0 scale.

Lima introduced a British H0 scale range a while ago, and Fleischmann even got in on the act with a loco and some coaches. Unfortunately it failed and Lima went over to 00 while fleischmannn haven't been heard of since in the British market. Both of these ranges used the Continental coupling as standard, meaning that British outline modellers couldn't use the h0 stock on their existing 00 layout.

I once heard it mentioned that had Mainline brought their range out in H0 it would have given the scale a real boost and 00 would have died off as a result. Had Lima, Mainline, and Fleischmann pressed on with British H0 that would have left only Hornby and the unreliable Airfix range available in 00, both of whom surely would have changed over to the international standard H0 at some point.

Peco have always produced a semi usable track system for H0 models, and with a few modifications it could have been turned into a true British H0 track system, rather than the ambiguous range they have at present which suits neither 00 or H0.

Hornby may now have the Lima H0 scale moulds in their posession, so if British H0 is to become available in the future it will most probably be from them.

If British H0 were a viable scale I would certainly change over, however at the moment there are no ready to run models, very few kits, and no H0 track system suitable for British models. So for the time being I'll stick to P4, as it's easier than H0 or EM, and I don't consider 00 an option.
 

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OO has always made British Model Railroads look toy like in my opinion, not that this is totally undesirable as it gives your models their own unique character. The problem I see in many of your layouts is the buildings don't look right in comparison to your trains. Why this is so I have no idea.
 

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On my layout using 00 Peco railtrack, that includes point work, my rolling stock is a mixture of HO and 00 scale that gives no trouble what so ever. I have found that H0 though much more expensive to buy, the product is much more reliable to run and materials better quality. I have two diesel locomotives manufactured by Fleischmann in the 1980s, that today, runs as efficently as when bought new. Most of my other rolling stock made by various manufacturers do couple up to the H0 locomotives without any trouble.
I must admit that I am not a perfectionist for details, rather enjoy to watch the rolling stock run on the layout - enjoyment is my number one.
 

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QUOTE (double00 @ 28 Aug 2005, 19:59)I must admit that I am not a perfectionist for details, rather enjoy to watch the rolling stock run on the layout - enjoyment is my number one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll second that. I have a mixture of OO and HO. I tend to bring out a series of one or the other, but I don't have a problem of mixing the two.
 

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'OO' was created in the 1920's,probably around 1926.At the time 'HO' was around having come in from mainly Germany and the USA,but the smaller loading gauge of British locos made it near impossible to make British 'HO' with the motors available at that time.I know of at least 2 suppl;iers of British 'HO' at this time,Reidpath(Essar) and Meredith(Merco) and Hamblings,but their were others.As track,chassis and wheels/axles were already available,a small group of modellers/suppliers decided to just make the bodies bigger by half a mill to the foot.These were small time manufacturers,modellers themselves who were helping other modellers to create small scale Britsh model railways some ten years before Meccano hit the market with mass production of Hornby-Dublo.I doubt if any of these supplers would have dreamed of the future of what they had created,and that it would become so popular.By the late 1930's standards had been created for 'OO' so Hornby-Dublo just follwed suit.Rovex probably could have produced 'HO' on the 1950's,but they were just making a cheap toy to compete with Hornby-Dublo,and very successfully as they are still going as the current Hornby.Yes Lima tried British 'HO',but quickly changed to 'OO'.Matt Ascough at Hove,the Fleischmann importer,was going to kill of 'OO' by getting British 'HO' through Fleischmann,but they only made the Bulleid coaches,and never got round to any locos.I think it is too late now for us to change,but one benefit is that it is easier on the eye to mix 'OO' and European/USA 'HO' togeteher,anyone who has seen an American 'HO' loco with a British 'OO' will know what I mean.
homeofoo
 

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Fleischmann did (and still do) make a H0 Warship diesel hydraulic loco.

I can't agree with the comment of British 00 and US/Continental H0 side by side is more pleasing to the eye, The proprtions are all differant, and they just don't "match" each other, if you've seen the 2 prototypes next to each other you'd know what I mean.
 

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I'm afraid I find the mongrel mix of scales that make up OO gauge to be jarring on both the intellect and the eye. Certainly, if someone has never been exposed to anything better, they will learn to accept it as 'normal' and wonder what the fuss is about. But it isn't realistic and it's one reason why British model trains always have a tendency toward a toy-like look, no matter how well made in other respects. It's unavoidable, given the quite substantial difference in scale. 0.5mm on 3.5mm is about 15% and that's enough to turn a scale 6 foot tall human into near enough a 7 foot tall human!

So, yes, there SHOULD be a move to 3.5mm scale but it's very unlikely to happen now - it's just far too entrenched. A pity though, in my opinion.
 

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I'm getting lost here somewhere. Surely any scale is correct if everything is built to that scale. I would model in 7mm if I had the space and could afford it as the larger sizes always look better to my eye, hence to me 4mm looks better than 3.5mm. Here in Spain where everything is H0 the rolling stock always looks too small to me for what it is. Sure the scale/gauge ratio may not be correct in 00 but when I think of all the other extreme compromises we make in the construction and appearance of our layouts then to me this becomes very small potatoes.
I know when I am viewing an oncoming train at eye level as it passes through scenery I have built, on track I have laid then my pleasure is complete.
Long live British 00.
I think I will have to have a lie down now for half an hour as I can feel a turn coming on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
What I cannot understand about OO, is how all the critics and rivet counters go on about the odd miniscule discrepancies here and there.

As soon as a new model arrives they pick it over like vultures at the end of a wilderbeast migration. They count the rivets, check out dimensions for scale, criticise slight colour variations, decals in slightly the wrong place, grain of the wood being vertical instead of horizontal, cab gauges with needles at zero indicating a dead loco etc. etc. etc.

Without fail, in every case, without exception, they ignore the fact that in a head on view the wheels are too close together!

Whilst I also collect OO scale, I cannot get it out of my head the wheels are to HO gauge.

This is why European continental HO is my first love, both for correct scale/gauge and quality, although British OO's quality has caught up in the lst few years.
 

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QUOTE they pick it over like vultures at the end of a wilderbeast migration
What a wonderful vision and description!
Surely that's half the fun!
The other half is diverting attention away from that other 'little' matter of course!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
This has got me thinking - should I open another topic about British N gauge having a different scale ratio to continental N gauge. Could I be that mischevious!

 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I hadn't fully realised the prototype size differences until recently.

If one accepts Stanier's Duchess class as Britain's largest loco (excluding Mallets), when one compares an OO model of this loco with a Rivarossi HO model of an American Big Boy, the size difference is quite staggering.

Side by side, the Duchess looks like a mere shunter, even though the Big Boy is 12.5% smaller in scale terms.

I have always admired the Big Boys and have just acquired a Rivarossi model off ebay, hence the ability to do the comparison.

Bob
 

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Thats exactly the point. British locos are tichy to start with. Thats why we had 00 in the first place in the 1920's so that the motors around then would fit. If we start shrinking British outline models we simply won't have the space to put all the electronic gizmos in that DCC offers.

Its bad enougth at the moment fitting a chip. What about when sound comes in, and smoke?

Can N gauge modellers do any of this, and if they can at what price?


Miniaturization means more for less.

In terms of value how is the average British outline modeller going to feel when they are paying the same money (or more!) for something that is 15% smaller?


And HO has a reputation in Europe for being very expensive.

I say stay out of the Euro! Stick with the Pound!

You know it makes sense.


Happy modelling
Gary
 

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QUOTE (bobknee @ 14 Oct 2005, 12:28)What I cannot understand about OO, is how all the critics and rivet counters go on about the odd miniscule discrepancies here and there.
Without fail, in every case, without exception, they ignore the fact that in a head on view the wheels are too close together!

Yes agree entirely, I've put this point across on the net a few times, and have been shot down by the 00 modellers as a rivet counter and elitist!

It's not just noticable from the front either, from the side the wheels are hidden deep in under the model, and the valvegear looks odd because of all the bends in the rods needed to suit the narrow gauge.

I'd love to see a magazine review saying something like "the model has an accurate body, but the chassis is a complete bodge up as the gauge is 2.33mm too narrow."
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So why not regauge OO to, I think, 18.82mm between the wheels? This would then be correct OO scale/gauge.

The reason for European HO models being seemingly expensive are 1) better quality and motors 2) expensive manufacturing costs in Europe. I suggest cost is not influenced by the difference between HO & OO scales.

Now that Hornby are reintroducing ex Lima/Jouef/Rivarossi models shortly, we might see the cost issue reduce now that they are manufactured in China.

First indications are the RRP's are not much lower than previously, but there have been significant improvements and it will be the discounted prices that are important.

Bob
 

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QUOTE (bobknee @ 14 Oct 2005, 13:53)So why not regauge OO to, I think, 18.82mm between the wheels? This would then be correct OO scale/gauge.

18.83mm/P4, that's exactly what I do, improves the appearance (and running qualities) no end.
 

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Do we all remember the dual gauge track mixing broad gauge and standard gauge across much of west Britain?

Maybe Hornby should take the initiative and start to produce dual gauge track so that P4 and OO locomotives and rolling stock can operate on the same layout!

And over time then can shift from one standard to the other!





Happy modelling
Gary
 
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