[Gary]

QUOTE However the actual 'arguments' brought to bear are severely flawed in that they totally ignore the very successful presence of HO, N and Z gauges, which overcome most of the objections voiced above. Sorry but their existence, their high quality and their usability virtually negates it all.

QUOTE Hardly! If it was THAT important, surely they would have opted for OO in the first place! In any case. what have either N or Z gauge to do with this specific HO/OO comparison.

I agree. It hasn't!

And I didn't introduce these gauges to be fair.

Are you saying that OO is not successful?

And that all the positives don't also apply to OO?

I firmly believe that British modellers are now getting continental standards for a lot less money and this is down to OO scale being used. A British tank loco is £40-£50 for a very good model. The HO continental equivalent is £100 or more. I simply am not prepared to pay £100 for a new tank loco no matter what and if HO means that then forget it. And I suspect that I hold a majority view on this point!

Is British N gauge really of the quality that you are suggesting? I do read the reviews in Model Rail and other magazines. I do accept a that N gauge has a lot going for it in terms of the operating side and this is why it has many followers. But to suggest that the models have the same "look and feel" of OO gauge would be seen by many as doubtful. And there are no British Z gauge models so British modellers cannot even think about it.

Happy modelling
Gary

The images below are from the Ontracks website. Would an HO Class 08 have to have a similar compromise to the N gauge version?:-

 

[Gary]

This is an image of a British OO scale loco. Take into account the fact that the loco is on its side and it has to have sideways play in the axle to enable the loco to negotiate set track curves. An HO scale British loco body would be 12.5% narrower. How is all the motion gear going to fit in the available space whilst permitting enough lateral movement in the axles and providing clearances to enable the navigation of small radius curves?

Yes I do know about Romford wheels but all the kit built locos I have had with complex motion gear have never had the required lateral movement in the axles to navigate tight curves. And those that have had the lateral movement and have been able to navigate tight curves have had a simple crank and no fancy valve gear. Romford wheels give you an extra 1mm either side and this is simply not enough as the reduction in overall width of an OO scale loco of 35mm would be almost 4.5mm. So I need 2.5mm from somewhere. Remember that HO scale continental locomotives have an almost identical width to their British OO counterparts.

Mission impossible I would suggest unless you increase the width of the track!

Happy modelling
Gary

PS I have just measured the width of an HO scale Lima loco I have and I will confirm that Lima cheated. The loco is too wide for HO scale!

 

[Rail-Rider]

The very first mention of N gauge was by bobknee, but only with a teasing suggestion to opening another topic to discuss it.
The next was by yourself with thisQUOTE Can N gauge modellers do any of this, and if they can at what price?
Miniaturization means more for less.
I believe the point you were trying to make at the time was that fitting digital chips to HO scale UK locos would be difficult. Surely it is fair to say that if they can be fitted in N-gauge locos, then there should be no problem with HO?
The price is a separate matter - better to deal with one point at a time if we are to avoid confusion. I might add that all the altering of posts and double posting does make it very difficult to be sure of what is really going on.

QUOTE British modellers are now getting continental standards for a lot less money and this is down to OO scale being used. A British tank loco is £40-£50 for a very good model. The HO continental equivalent is £100 or more. I simply am not prepared to pay £100 for a new tank loco no matter what and if HO means that then forget it. And I suspect that I hold a majority view on this point!
Those few lines need some looking at.

On what basis do you decide that British models ARE up to "Continental standards"?
They have improved, but whether they have yet actually equalled Continental is debatable.
I would say it's even pretty questionable as to how that could be fairly judged, even by someone unbiased one way or the other.

So, no problem in saying that UK OO models have improved some over the last 20 years. But I have a big problem with how the improvement can possibly be attributed as "this is down to OO scale being used"? Sorry, but I don't see any connection whatever - UK scale was always OO, so why is quality only recently starting to bridge what was a large gap?

As for the price comparison, you post a couple of prices, plucked from . . . where?
In comparing any items with each other, we need to know which items are being compared or the comparison is meaningless.
So, rather than posting pictures of N gauge and OO locos, which have a VERY large difference in scale, it would be very much more useful to compare equivalent HO and OO models, especially when that is actually the basis for this discussion. Even with the pictures shown, you don't state who makes which model or what their prices are. Could you fill that information in so we can then perhaps make fair comparisons?

"If HO means that (double the price), then forget it"
How can you attribute the price difference purely to the scale and ignore any other consideration?

" . . . I hold a majority view on this point!"
Well, apart from the 'point' being very ambiguous as already mentioned, again, I wonder on what basis you feel you are in a majority. Maybe you are, but I suspect that there just might be a few more rail modellers outside little old UK than inside it and the super massive majority of them wouldn't agree at all!

What would be extremely interesting would be a detailed comparative review of reasonably fair and equivalent UK and Continental locos and perhaps rolling stock. The HUGE problem would be to find someone who wasn't already immovably biased one way OR the other!

 

[Doug]

QUOTE (Rail-Rider @ 20 Oct 2005, 20:31)...
What would be extremely interesting would be a detailed comparative review of reasonably fair and equivalent UK and Continental locos and perhaps rolling stock. The HUGE problem would be to find someone who wasn't already immovably biased one way OR the other!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I could do that without being biased. I have about equal quantities of Continental and British locos and rolling stock.

What models would make good comparisons?

I would say that we look at recent models. Similar and roughly the same quality bracket. There is no point in comparing a KISS Modellbahnen loco to a Hornby Yet...

.

 

[Gary]

Continental HO locomotives are the same size as UK OO locomotives. You are asking manufacturers of British outline to shrink their locomotives. Detail will have to shrink also else it won't look right and overscale. This will require the use of more expensive techniques to create this finer detail. More use of etched metal and fine wire and castings. British HO will cost more.

Now what about the technical argument? (See pictures above)

For a wheelbase of 70mm on radius 2 curves, axle movement of 1.5mm is required by the centre axle relative to the two end axles for a 4-6-0 configuration (for example). This is much higher for radius one curves. This allowance combined with the detail above would make HO scale unworkable on 16.5mm track for British outline models unless there was major compromise which is likely to be unacceptable to most modellers.

In fact by reducing the loco width by 4.5mm you are loosing around 33% of your working space for motion gear and axle play for curves.

HO simply will not work with British locomotives unless the steam cylinders are sticking out. This was tried once before by Hornby with an Ivatt in the 1970's and it only lasted 2 years before it was dropped! It was a very unpopular model as it did not look right as a result of this compromise.

So Hornby have been there, seen it, done it, and the compromises have not been popular with modellers.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

I have just made a remarkable discovery whilst browsing through a Fleischmann catalogue.

All steam cylinders on continental locomotives stick out from the bodywork!

And on British locomotives they do not but are tucked away flush and under!

It makes it so much easier if a manufacturer can stick the cylinders out in terms of clearances and tolerances and they can get away with 1-2 mm in this area.

Sadly for the Brit OO manufacturers they cannot and so they have no room to maneuver in this area.

Continental HO manufacturers have it easy!

Thats probably the end of this discussion!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Rail-Rider]

Doug
That's a very nice offer if you can manage it!

I would suggest something on the lines of
A 0-6-0 diesel shunter
A 4-6-2 steam loco
A Bo-Bo or Co-Co, either electric or diesel.

Gary
You ignored requests for info on the illustrated OO and N diesels.
Is the problem that the OO model surprised you by costing quite a bit more than the N?

Regarding lateral movement of driving axles - it isn't actually necessary that all the slack be taken up by a single axle to negotiate curves. It can be shared by all the axles and, in many cases, that is what is done by Continental manufacturers. There are other little engineering tricks too.

One thing I will agree on - Continental manufacturers, particularly German ones, do price frighteningly high. But it matters very little which gauge you look at because it isn't the gauge that creates the high figures.

Strange that a UK manufacturer doesn't jump in and start making continental models - I wonder why not?

 

[Gary]

QUOTE Gary You ignored requests for info on the illustrated OO and N diesels.
Is the problem that the OO model surprised you by costing quite a bit more than the N?

To be fair the purpose of the illustration was not about price comparison but for the record the difference between the two models is around £10 in favour of the N gauge example in this case. I simply wanted to illustrate that N gauge models do have compromises as a result of the scale and that British HO models may suffer the same fate.

My local stockist does report that the main objection raised when he suggests N gauge to new customers who come in and browse is that they expect a model half the size to be at least half the price and are surprised when they learn it is not and in many cases more!

QUOTE Regarding lateral movement of driving axles - it isn't actually necessary that all the slack be taken up by a single axle to negotiate curves. It can be shared by all the axles and, in many cases, that is what is done by Continental manufacturers. There are other little engineering tricks too.

Agreed but the slack still has to be found from within the width of the engineering and the body of the chassis of the loco and that does not get over the fact that British OO models and European HO models are a similar width. British OO would have to loose 4.5mm on the width which is 30% of the dimension within which models have to accomodate the motion gear, movement and clearances.

See image below which is from an earlier post:-

QUOTE Strange that a UK manufacturer doesn't jump in and start making continental models - I wonder why not?

Bachmann and Hornby both own strong European brands and both already produce HO models for European markets.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[LisaP4]

Gary, your image there illustrates my earlier point about grossly overscale wheel widths, halve the width of that wheel and there's alot more clearance.
In any case your argument has a major flaw, if I were to drop a set of P4 wheels into that model it would be running on the correct gauge for it's scale, therefore H0 being the correct gauge for the scale would not have a problem either.

 

[Gary]

I have covered this in an earlier post with reference to Romford wheels only giving an extra 2mm when we need to find 4.5mm.

Don't take this the wrong way Lisa4P as I can see the merits of P4 and EM. However forget P4 and EM!

Its not practical. Modellers want to run both continental and American HO on the same track as British OO. To say that you want ready to run manufacturers to produce British outline locomotives that only run on special 18mm track (or whetever) is not a serious option.

We still need to find 2.5mm from somewhere assuming that narrow wheels and fine/smaller less deep rivets/bolts have the strength required for a ready to run loco that might suffer abuse from a minor.

Hornby locomotives operate for 100's of hours without maintenance. Can you say that of P4 and EM models with all this very fine detail under the chassis?

Hornby and Bachmann have warranties to honour and are highly regarded for producing reliable running locomotives. We cannot overlook this consideration.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[LisaP4]

Romford wheels are still grossly over width.

 

[Gary]

European and American HO ready to run manufacturers use wheels that are the same width as British OO manufacturers.

It is unfair to single out British manufacturers in this respect.

It is done for several reasons and these are reliability, strength and cost I suspect.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Rail-Rider]

QUOTE I simply wanted to illustrate that N gauge models do have compromises as a result of the scale
Of course they do - only to be expected when it is half the scale - a huge jump.
But further exacerbated by examples which probably represent the best and worst extremes of available quality. Not a reasonable comparison at all. In practice, they were probably all that you could easily lay hands on, but very unfair in those particular comparisons.

It will be very interesting to see what Doug is able to compare, though sourcing suitable models for fair comparison will be an onerous task. He may regret volunteering!

 

[LisaP4]

QUOTE (Gary @ 21 Oct 2005, 09:34)Don't take this the wrong way Lisa4P as I can see the merits of P4 and EM. However forget P4 and EM!

Its not practical. Modellers want to run both continental and American HO on the same track as British OO. To say that you want ready to run manufacturers to produce British outline locomotives that only run on special 18mm track (or whetever) is not a serious option.
I didn't say I wanted RTR P4, so I don't know where you pulled that from.

I definitely support the adoption of RTR British H0 rather than P4, for the same reasons you mention. I simply mentioned P4 because fitting the correct gauge wheels into a model is quite relevent when discussing a change from 00 to H0.

QUOTE I have covered this in an earlier post with reference to Romford wheels only giving an extra 2mm when we need to find 4.5mm.

European and American HO ready to run manufacturers use wheels that are the same width as British OO manufacturers.

It is unfair to single out British manufacturers in this respect.

It is done for several reasons and these are reliability, strength and cost I suspect.

We still need to find 2.5mm from somewhere assuming that narrow wheels and fine/smaller less deep rivets/bolts have the strength required for a ready to run loco that might suffer abuse from a minor.

I've cut 2 of your posts together there as they are on the same subject. I can't comment on European prototypes but most US models these days use the NMRA RP25/88 wheel standard, this gives a wheel which is 2mm wide, compare this to the 4mm wide wheels you keep bringing up and that's a reduction of 4mm over the wheelset, 00 uses wide wheels so that the valve gear doesn't have to be modified too much to fit the narrow gauge, and also so the wheels aren't hidden too far under the model which would alter it's appearance more so. The width of the wheel treads have no bearing on the running qualities of a model, unless you're handlaying the track and can't keep the gauge even!

QUOTE Hornby locomotives operate for 100's of hours without maintenance. Can you say that of P4 and EM models with all this very fine detail under the chassis?
You mean the Bachmann and Hornby models I've fitted new wheelsets to? I give them the occassional drop of oil but other than that they are just as maintenance free as when they were on 00 wheels, except they now run much smoother.

 

[LMS 10456]

Yep, you only have to look at the photos of Coronation (aka D.of Ham.)when it toured the US in 1939 to see how small British locos are.
I don't reckon that the change of scale is on as far as the mass market is concerned - it would be easier for manufacturers to change the gauge to match 4 mm scale. But then you would not be able to run "foreign"....
Perhaps we could persuede the rest of the world adopt 4mm scale instead.
Now I'll sit back and wait for the "coming storm"
Also, lets not knock manufacturers too much when they get things a little wrong.
Its easy to make mistakes and if it something that really bugs you then do some actual modelleing and put it right. Remember that it just is not possible to produce every item on a model loco, coach etc exactly to scale - it just would not be robust enough to work.
Have fun guys - its what a hobby is supposed to be.
Pete

 

[Gary]

QUOTE I can't comment on European prototypes but most US models these days use the NMRA RP25/88 wheel standard, this gives a wheel which is 2mm wide, compare this to the 4mm wide wheels you keep bringing up and that's a reduction of 4mm over the wheelset

The wheels on the Hornby loco in the picture are 2.5mm wide which is 0.5mm wider than the figure quoted, not 2mm wider. The Hornby and Bachmann wheels are designed to run on code 100 proprietory set track and do a very good job providing excellent performance in these conditions. The locomotives are smooth and capable of hauling plenty of coaches around set track small radius curves and also are capable of crossing points and other track features.

There are probably a lot of folk reading this who would be surprised that you seem to have so much of a running problem with ready to run Hornby locomotives!

I cannot comment about your own track set up Lisa4P except to say that it is not a proprietory track. If folk choose to use track that has not been produced by a proprietory manufacturer then it is not fair to criticise a manufacturer if running is perceived as not being to a standard required. And remember that manufacturers have to take into account all standards of railway modellers and not just those who are in the top 1-2%.

I think doubleOO made a similar point elsewhere in a track discussion.

You could probably see this point of view?

QUOTE Perhaps we could persuede the rest of the world adopt 4mm scale instead.
Now I'll sit back and wait for the "coming storm"

Nice idea!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[LisaP4]

OK, so we still need to find around 2mm on each side, lets look at that picture you posted then

Obviously we reduce the width of the wheel by 0.5mm, then reduce the gap between wheel and coupling rod, the head on the crankpin can be thinned down a bit, and the connecting rod can be fitted in the crosshead where it should be instead of just bolted on the back of it.
That gives us a model that looks like this

Then move the wheels out to where they should be and we have this, clearly there is still plenty of clearance.

Also I didn't say I have problems with the running of RTR models. I did say that they run smother with the decent wheel and track standards I use.
And my track is commercial flexible track and commercial points, nothing special there.

 

[Rail-Rider]

I just HAVE to say that is as effective a piece of photo manipulation as I have ever seen in such a context - I am dumbstruck!

Absolutely magnificent!!!

 

[Gary]

I'll be posting some more pictures later for LisaP4 to manipulate.

Not quite sure what Lisa will do when these are posted but they are good pictures!

Its one thing to manipulate images but its the difference between manufacturing on a production line to make a product and offer a complete value package for the masses and hand building a loco to produce a model for the few.

Hornby probably produce 500,000 locos or more each year. Kit white metal manufacturers probably have production runs of 50 to 100 and the running gear is designed for those who seek what LisaP4 is seeking. Why don't kit manufacturers do HO if we are saying that it is possible to do this taking into account all the other variables?

Now I am not saying what is right and what is wrong but there are factors that determine what can and cannot be done easily that we as customers may not appreciate.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[LisaP4]

There are H0 kits for British outline, have a look around and you'll find them, I'm pretty sure DJH even to a few of them.
Also there was a linited run of ready to run LNER A3's produced a few years ago, so clearly it is entirely possible.

One comment that has come up a few times in this discussion is "would we be willing to accept the compromises necessary to build models to H0 scale?"
I'll put that question back to you all,
Why are we willing to accept a major flaw (the gauge) in all our 00 models, when we clearly won't accept the odd dimensional inaccuracy in other areas?

And Gary please get my UID correct in your posts.