Should We Move From OO to HO?

QUOTE Why are we willing to accept a major flaw (the gauge) in all our 00 models, when we clearly won't accept the odd dimensional inaccuracy in other areas?

What evidence do you have for this?

There are large numbers of correspondents at both Pat Hammonds site and in the modelling press that are very happy with the products that are being offered to us.

I would discount rivet counters that go looking for issues as these are unrepresentative, probably don't appreciate the manufacturing process, and still buy the models anyway!

If they have the right look and feel and nice detail and they run right and appear to offer remarkable value then what more can you ask?

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE The thing is 00 models don't have "the right look and feel" below the chassis, although some will say it isn't noticable if you stand far enough away from it and look at it from a certain angle and ignore it.

I don't look at my models. I run them. And if you stand far enough away you can't see the detail below!

And my comment that you have refered to was about detail above the body not below and about HO compromise for smaller British prototype locomotives. The fact is (and you cannot deny this) people did not buy these HO locomotives and Rivarossi gave up and Lima quickly moved to OO. The HO models produced by these companies were almost the same width as OO models but were shorter in length by 12.5%. Would you buy one of these HO examples?

They offered "compromise" HO with British Loco bodies that had an above scale width that would sit on a chassis designed for HO models in Europe.

Happy modelling
Gary

I have done a google search and nobody produces a kit of an HO "Flying Scotsman".

I would agree with LisaP4 that if any British steam loco was to be considered as a candidate for an HO model it should be "Flying Scotsman".

Now given that it is possible to create a smaller HO chassis than is currently available, then an investment of £150,000 would be required to produce a ready to run HO example of this model that would be of an acceptable standard.

And say the production cost was £35 after the start up investment. At a wholesale price to retailers of say £60 with retail at £90 (or whatever the overseas currency conversion rate is at these sort of levels) a sale of 100,000 examples would provide a gross return for the manufacturer of £100,000. Not a lot for the risk.

Now this would be an "export only" model. It would not be available in the UK.

And what about coaches. These would have to be developed and produced in HO also. How could you sell an HO "Flying Scotsman" without matching coaches? This is an additional cost and risk.

Are there 100,000 enthusiasts outside the UK who would be happy to purchase a UK outline HO "Flying Scotsman"?

Judging by sales of the OO scale version overseas probably not. The Bachmann HO "Hogwarts Express" trainset sold in America was not the stunning success of its Hornby brother in the UK. Perhaps evidence that Americans are not too interested in British outline.

These are the sort of numbers you would need to be talking about for an investment of this type to be viable and there is evidence that these sort of numbers would not be met.

Happy modelling
Gary

You mention that all 00 coaches will not fit H0 locomotive couplings.
I have a mixture of both H0 and 00 locomotives, coaches and I am able to couple an HO coach to a 00 locomotive and vice versa.

QUOTE Judging by sales of the OO scale version overseas probably not.
The problem here is knowing what factors were really responsible for the apparent sales resistance in USA.
Perhaps it was resistance to a model of a UK locomotive.
But equally, it could have been resistance to its 'scale' of . . . OO.
Maybe it was ineffective marketing.
Maybe it was a combination of those three and maybe it was something else again.
We can't really tell can we?

I agree that it would be a commercial risk to produce UK models in HO, one that is probably not worth taking. Though it might become a more attractive proposition once Hornby have got the hang of their recent foreign acquisitions. and beaten them into profitable shape.

I have been following all the posts on 00/H0, UK/Continental models and can't help wondering just how many active modellers there are here. When I say active I mean those with a working model railway either under active construction or in a state where trains are being run for their own sake rather than whether or not they, and their track, are accurate to the nth degree. Just curious.

I must admit that I run my railway models simply for enjoyment and have no thought in accuracy to scale, except everything is 00 or H0 gauge. My layout looks good, well to me anyway and I have no wish to exhibiting it in public.

I know your right in theory Liza, but I'm not changing my 00 collection for that reason.
Personally I'd love to have R-T-R HO but not at the expence of scapping my collection.
Like most modeller I have quite an investment in my gauge. You cannot erradicate 00
simply by dropping it's manufacture. 00 is here to stay warts and all.
I would also be serriously intrested with the commerial re-introduction of 3mm since in this gauge we have an excellent compromise of gauge and scale. I'm not intrested in constructing my whole railway from scratch, and I don't want a railway the size of a shoebox (no offence to anyone intended). I want an operational model railway, of the size to run reasonably large trains to a timetable, where trains travel to multiple stations on my layout. I want continious run. I want the pleasure of watch my stock run.
I look forward to the challenge of designing a new layout. So HO, OO, 3mm (TT) I just want to enjoy my layout, run trains with a period background. EM & P4 all have their place, but not in my order of things.

Both gauges 00 and H0 locomotives, coaches and wagons can run over the same gauge of either 00 or H0 track, therefor inter changeable.
As it was pointed out in another forum, that the new couplings can cause problems when coupling up the different rolling stock gauges if fitted with older type couplings.
I did find the Fleischman DMU 614 two car set, has the new couplings fitted and making it impossible to interchange with my other models. At present I can use the 00 and H0 on my gauge 00 layout.

It isn't very well known,
but Hornby did, once upon a time (1961-1974), make a range called . . .

HORNBY-ACHO !!!

Click it!

OO & HO can be run on the same track - agreed, but isn't the main complaint that the track itself is HO scale? That is, the size of the sleepers etc is visually smaller than it should be for OO scale.

So, the gauge is the same, enabling both OO and HO stock to run on the same track, but the scale is incorrect for OO.

Cat 'mongst pigeons methinks!

Here's a comparison between H0 track on the left and P4 (which is correct for 00) on the right.



Something I missed earlier was Gary showing an N gauge 08 trying to make a point about compromises that would be necessary in H0, sorry Gary but Roco already do a H0 scale 08, it's been on the market for years and is no less accurate than the latest Hornby or Bachmann offerings.

No P4 here but variations on the OO/HO theme

From the top
1. Not sure what it is exactly! But VERY fine rail profile HO nickel silver
Base is stamped "MC 10500-01" so I don't think it's Peco.
2. Graham Farish Code 100 flexy nickel silver
3. Scaleway by SMP - Nickel Silver
4. Scaleway by SMP - Phosphor Bronze



The varying sleeper/tie dimensions are plain to see.
But the phosphor bronze rail isn't plain to see!
It looks a nice colour from a side view but the top view looks nothing like steel and blends into the brown of the sleepers/ties, horribly. Also they all look too red hued on the left side due to tungsten light overspill. Nothing is quite as effective as painting steel rail with filth for realism!

Its a compromise between appearance and strength. We do have to think toy track here no matter what anybody may say.

The only way to deal with this and to give British track a British appearance is to have scale sleepers on a pre-formed ballasted base for strength. Scale set track would simply fall apart in your hands. Think of how weak the old Hornby Dublo 2 rail track was. It has to be treated with a lot of care or else...

I am in favour of set track with pre-formed ballast arrangements with click fitting especially if digital platforms are seen as the future of British railway modelling by Hornby and others. It does make track more expensive though but then it lasts. It would certainly make the production of more realistic looking track feasible.

I suspect set track P4 style even with HO/OO 16.5mm dimensions is simply not possible to mass produce and retailers would not wish to stock it as it would be too easily damaged and would suffer too many returns combined with the additional administration. Think of young Johnny at Xmas opening up his train set and finding P4 track in the box. The subsequent disaster by the time of the Queen's speech doesn't bear thinking about!

Happy modelling
Gary