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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've seen piemanlargers video clips of his 158 with sound, and have also emailed SWD to see if they've sampled a rarer "Perkins" engined one.......I've also posted on the MREmag site about my misgivings.

Firstly, let me state I've got two model 158s, in FNW blue and WYPTE red/silver, and am looking to go DCC and install sound too. I work for Northern Rail as a driver, and take 158's over the Calder Valley route. Northern have a mixed fleet, with many cast offs from previous owners, both with the Cummins engine fitted to the majority of the units, and the Perkins engines that a few of the later ones sport.

The Perkins engine has a deeper, more rattly sound, and to me, this is the sound that the SWD one gives out. SWD have told me that they sampled a Cummins one, but to me it doesn't sound right. It may be due to the limitation of the sound on piemanlargers youtube video.

However, have SWD considered the following ? In a diesel electric loco, the engine sounds the same no matter on which side of the loco you are stood. Furthermore, the engine sounds pretty much the same whether under load or just being "notched" when stationary, thanks to the control system and engine governor.

But, a DMU has a horizontal engine. Stand on one side and you'll hear a noisy engine, because of the valvegear and combustion sounds. Stand on the other, and its a smoother and much quieter, as you're listening to the bottom end of the engine. Have SWD thought about this, and do they "mix" the two sounds ?

Also, all diesel hydrualic traction has engine sounds that are dependent on the transmission characteristics - the engine noises changes throughout the speed range. In a 158, under full power, from 0-55mph the transmission uses its torque converter, and the engine revs at max rpm. But at 55mph, the fluid coupling takes over, providing a kind of direct drive, and the engine revs drop, and then increase as the vehicle speed increases, and the engines' torque accelerates the unit forward.

Plus, there is the rise and fall in engine revs on starting off, as the engine revs before the transmission fills with oil, and then drops as the load is imposed on it.

Do SWD incorporate this in their sounds, and advise users on appropriate CV values to trigger it ?

And listening to a 158 make slow speed movements on the depot last night, a lot noise came from the cardan shaft from engine to transmission and the transmission itself. There was also a "moaning" noise from the hydrostatic system driving the alternators and a/c compressors. Model that !!

I'm sorry to open a can of worms here and perhaps be a bit pedantic, but if it's worth doing then its worth doing correctly. Although boring prototypes, the sound side of diesel hydrualic traction is more interesting and more difficult to replicate.
Indeed, is this kind of attention to detail possible in DCC, or am I expecting too much ?

And to me, the horn is all wrong - far too low. If a basic like that is wrong, then suspicions arise about the rest of the package. I don't have a website but can post a 158 horn sound to anyone who wants to hear the real thing.

I like the SWD stuff that I've seen on piemanlargers video clips, but think that this one needs further work - certainly before I part with any cash !
 

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[quote name='dieselweasel' date='4 May 2007, 09:53' post='28041']
I've seen piemanlargers video clips of his 158 with sound, and have also emailed SWD to see if they've sampled a rarer "Perkins" engined one.......I've also posted on the MREmag site about my misgivings.

The Perkins engine has a deeper, more rattly sound, and to me, this is the sound that the SWD one gives out. SWD have told me that they sampled a Cummins one, but to me it doesn't sound right. It may be due to the limitation of the sound on piemanlargers youtube video.

Perhaps this a cummins engine with a different note to those that you are used too? And yes, the u-tube clips are done on a cheap compact, not ideal sound and motion cature.

But, a DMU has a horizontal engine. Stand on one side and you'll hear a noisy engine, because of the valvegear and combustion sounds. Stand on the other, and its a smoother and much quieter, as you're listening to the bottom end of the engine. Have SWD thought about this, and do they "mix" the two sounds ?

If you hear the two different sounds while on different sides of the unit, I dont understand why you want them mixed as if you could hear both sides at once? I`d prefere the noisy side

Plus, there is the rise and fall in engine revs on starting off, as the engine revs before the transmission fills with oil, and then drops as the load is imposed on it.
Do SWD incorporate this in their sounds, and advise users on appropriate CV values to trigger it ?
Yes

I'm sorry to open a can of worms here and perhaps be a bit pedantic, but if it's worth doing then its worth doing correctly. Although boring prototypes, the sound side of diesel hydrualic traction is more interesting and more difficult to replicate.
Indeed, is this kind of attention to detail possible in DCC, or am I expecting too much ?

i think you are expecting too much. you have to consider that there is only 2 minutes of sound availble on the chip. If the 158 as it is does not make you happy dont buy it. However, for me its the best 158 sound chip around! Sound will develope over the coming years if not months. For me, I look at any model now hat does not have sound and I can not help but think how poor and unrealistic it is, they may as well be unpainted. Who ever heard a quiet train!


And to me, the horn is all wrong - far too low. If a basic like that is wrong, then suspicions arise about the rest of the package. I don't have a website but can post a 158 horn sound to anyone who wants to hear the real thing.

Again, you seem to be presuming that every member of a class will sound exactly the same. I have numerous 158 pass the bottom of my garden every day and I can assure you not all 158 sound the same. There will be future 158 projects, with different horns recorded from different units. Perhaps you should wait, though it may be next year, for one of these?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Perhaps this a cummins engine with a different note to those that you are used too? And yes, the u-tube clips are done on a cheap compact, not ideal sound and motion cature.

No. A 158 with a cummins engine sounds just like another 158 with a cummins engine, and we've got at least 20 now with cummins ones. I've spent amny hours on stations listening to the vast TPE fleet too. Granted, a 158 engine sounds different from the same block fitted on other 15x units because of the raft which covers part of the engine, muffling the sounds - and the intercooler which alters the combustion characteristics and hence the noise. So they can't make a 150 chip using the 158 sound.

If you hear the two different sounds while on different sides of the unit, I dont understand why you want them mixed as if you could hear both sides at once? I`d prefere the noisy side

Aye, but which side did the SWD recorder stand on ? Can you choose which sound to have ?!! There are two engine sounds to record, lets say side a and side B. I take it they stood on the noisy side then. So the sound is only half right then ? A 158 (or any other unit) passes by - you'll hear the noisy side of one engine and the quiet sound of the other. How do you model that ??

i think you are expecting too much. you have to consider that there is only 2 minutes of sound availble on the chip. If the 158 as it is does not make you happy dont buy it. However, for me its the best 158 sound chip around! Sound will develope over the coming years if not months. For me, I look at any model now hat does not have sound and I can not help but think how poor and unrealistic it is, they may as well be unpainted. Who ever heard a quiet train!


Yes, but we'll howl if the livery is wrong or if the wrong shape is portrayed. Yet we should accept incorrect sounds because its new technology ?

And to me, the horn is all wrong - far too low. If a basic like that is wrong, then suspicions arise about the rest of the package. I don't have a website but can post a 158 horn sound to anyone who wants to hear the real thing.

Again, you seem to be presuming that every member of a class will sound exactly the same. I have numerous 158 pass the bottom of my garden every day and I can assure you not all 158 sound the same. There will be future 158 projects, with different horns recorded from different units. Perhaps you should wait, though it may be next year, for one of these?

No - Im not presuming they'll all sound the same - but SWD are. Mind you, every 158 I've seen and heard and driven (ex FNW, WYPTE 158/9's, ex Central, ex Scotrail (last year) ex Arriva wales and borders and the TPE fleet) has a high pitched horn, as if their voice hasn't broken. It seems unique to 158's - but you'll have to check with Neville Hill, Cardiff Canton, Haymarket, Heaton or Tyseley depots for the definitive answer. But the one on the chip is wrong.

Many articles on superdetailing tell you to check out the prototype. If you model one particluar loco, check out that loco. this is the reverse - a sound that is meant to be okay for all 158's. Extrapolate it back. Make sure if you record something that it is representative of the majority !
 

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QUOTE (dieselweasel @ 4 May 2007, 10:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Make sure if you record something that it is representative of the majority !

That is not always possible.
I am happy, many people have ordered the chip so we can presume they were happy with the clips, you obviuosly will wait until another version comes along.
 

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What do you mean not always possible ? 158's work throughout the country. Stand at Leeds, Plymouth, inverness, Manchester, Doncaster. you'll hear and see them in action. Might be different if its a class 28 sound chip.

Are you connected to SWD or just a "satisfied customer" ?

I don't mean to "have a go" - I enjoy your youtube postings and the layout is good work.

But I get the impression from this and other postings that you have "inside gen" on future releases, and have fitted the 158 chip which SWDs website says is "coming soon", so shouldn't be generally available ?

Just so we all know...
 

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Dieselweasel,

The 158's are out cause a fellow club member of mine has got 2 of them and the other projects are on the web site, SWD will also give any extra info if they can and other projects they are looking into if you phone up or e-mail them.

I asked about future projects and Caroline told me what they were looking into.

Although not 100% sure, i think Piemanlarger is just a very satisfied customer, like I am. (4 loco's done, 3 to do this weekend hopefully).

Alistair
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Just seems to have a lot of inside gen about them - he states that there are lots of orders for the 158 chip. Normal punter in the street wouldn't know about that.

If he's just a satisfied customer, then fine. I have suspicions that he's more involved, and that his opinion for the product isn't entirely free of bias.
 

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QUOTE (dieselweasel @ 4 May 2007, 23:23) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What do you mean not always possible ? 158's work throughout the country. Stand at Leeds, Plymouth, inverness, Manchester, Doncaster. you'll hear and see them in action. Might be different if its a class 28 sound chip.

To get a decent reacording, or at least for SWd to get the recording to the standard they wish, you must have a very quiet recording situation so no background noises are picked up. Therefore, recording on general station platforms though very easy, I dont think will produce the results they wish to produce.

Are you connected to SWD or just a "satisfied customer" ?

I, like many other am a satisfied customer. I have been installing sound chips for the past two years. One thing that is different about SWd is the customer service. You will find, if you approach them correctly that both Steve and Caroline (thats the whole staff of SWD) are very friendly, willing to listen to customers and where able take on board suggestions. I am responsible for the buffer clash and coupling sound we hear on the SWd chiips, it was i who originally suggested it a couple of years ago as an extra play factor sound.

I don't mean to "have a go" - I enjoy your youtube postings and the layout is good work.
But I get the impression from this and other postings that you have "inside gen" on future releases, and have fitted the 158 chip which SWDs website says is "coming soon", so shouldn't be generally available ?

You are quite free to have a go if you wish. I spent £100 on a class 33 sound chip from Mr.Soundguy/Dcc supplies and it is very poor, so I had a go! I have been offered an updated version, but I am still waiting some 3 months later for details on how this is to come about. Needless to say at the moment I am not impressed and will not spend or recommend any one else to part with cash for one.

I understand your views on the 158 not sounding how you think it should, but you have to accept that there is at least one 158 in the country that sounds like this sound chip, its where the recording came from. As I said, i believe there will be other horns on future 158 chips (mk 2 version if you like) but these will not be done probably until next year due to Steve's other work commitments (SWD is a second job, not the job that pays the bills) and bachmann projects.
There is a simular situation with the SWd 47, apparently there was somthing not quite right with the engine and an experienced 47 fitter correctly picked it out of the recording and named the loco used. No general punter who has heard mine has ever picked it up though, to them it sounds just like a 47.

Again, like a few others who have helped and supported SWD from almost the start, i am given some information that I can not disclose until a certain time. All my locos are sound chipped, as for me its the most realistic part of railway modelling that has always been missing. More than that though, I find it much more Fun with sound. I do try to keep fun in my hobby, though I have to admit I was disapointed at many of the standard of "exhibition" layouts at the bristol show yesterday. One of the poorest shows I have been to in the last 5 years.

You should have checked the SWD website befor the bit about the 158 as it was updated on may 1st to say they were available

Just so we all know...

Hope to have been of help and insite.
 

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No problem, thanks for setting the record straight

I appreciate SWD can't record at stations, and need friendly contacts so appropriate recordings can be made at "quiet places"


As I said, I think diesel hydraulic traction is more difficult to get right thanks to the transmission making the engine sound different at different speeds, which you can't do on a depot (5mph limit!), and can't really do stood on a station. But I'm still not convinced about the horn sound............

Get the SWD man to wire up my next 158 on a Vic-Leeds run and I'll demonstrate. Plenty of whistle boards to test the horn too!

Your point on the 47 is valid. I remember a recent post on this site about a class 25 sound (I think), which apparently had come from an engine with a fault, which enabled someone to identify the individual loco! A knock or a wheezing valve I think.

And yes, they updated the website between me starting to rant and the last post........
 
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