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Chief cook & bottle washer
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all. I've asked on rmweb without too much luck, so thought I'd see if any dcc experts on here have got any ideas. My T9 was delivered last friday, and after making sure it ran on DC I put in a brand new Lenz Silver Mini. I switched to programming track (dpdt switch), read back the address, which was 3 as expected, then switched back to the main power, put in No 3 (Lenz LH 100), and nothing. To cut a long story a bit short, I then tried the same thing with 3 brand new Lenz Gold decoders, with exactly the same result. I tried the 4 Lenz's in another Loco' and they worked perfectly. I then found an old TCS M1 that I've had laying about for a few years, and it worked. The motor control is something that I just can't get as smooth as Lenz straight out of the box, no matter how hard I try, so I prefer to use the Lenz kit. Can anyone shed any light on this for me, cos it's driving me nuts. After checking the Loco' electrically and finding no problem, I just can't understand why this is happening. The track and wheels / pickups are all clean. I've chipped about 30 Loco's, including hard wiring and split chassis, so I'm no novice. Please help if you can.
 

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DT
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All that I can think is that the decoder is set to use a long address - and you are only reading back CV1.

When you use a long address, CV1 is not used and can still be set to #3. The loco though won't respond to address #3 if a long address has been set.

On the Lenz controller, read back the (long or short) address (ADR) using Direct mode (DIR). See page 52 of the LH100 Dispatcher's Throttle handbook.
 

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Just another modeller
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***Move to a new TCS M1 with back EMF - they are if anything better at motor control than the Lenz. DO remove capacitors from the T1 - it really is smoother without them no matter what decoder brand.

Richard
 

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Chief cook & bottle washer
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks Gents. I was only using address 3, so don't think it's that. Also, the Lenz's worked perfectly, straight off in the other Loco'

I'll think about the new TCS with back EMF. I may well give you a ring Richard,
 

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Just another modeller
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*** Its an interesting problem though:

Doug pointed out to me that my post didn't really address the question which is, on reflection, true - and I've been thinking a little about the problem since then...

I'd love to get to the bottom of it... Its not a common problem so what is unique about the specific T9 that you have that can cause such an issue?

Question: Once you tried the Lenz's in another loco did you re-try in the T9? (I'm not suggesting you should necessarily disassemble it again - just wondering)

I wonder... Could it be that the socket is only wired OK for one direction - OR - more likely, is there maybe a short between any two pins where it won't affect basic motor drive directly... ie in the inside 4 pins.

That would almost certainly make the lenz decoders shut down or activate their CV30 protection - something that the TCS does not have.

(So... If there is a solder bridge between two pins in the centre 4, or one outside pin to any of the centre 4, then Lenz will maybe shut down, TCS would keep motor drive working).

Also did you try to reverse the lenz decoder in the T9 DCC socket?

Its worth checking this out if you can be bothered (and OK if you don't want to too - its just me being curious).

So - if you want to... unscrew or unclip the socket and look closely both sides - any short should be obvious visually. If nothing obvious, then if you have a meter, set the meter to ohms and check as follows.

Have it off the track. remove the decoder if its still there. Leave all other connections in place.

No pin should show a short between it and any other pin other than the two motor pins (orange and gray). Orange and gray should show only in relation to each other,, not to any other pin.... etc etc.

If we can't nut it out, then I may buy one to take a look (I have a need anyway as I'm doing sound for it). Which model number was it (I have my fingers crossed that its the watercart tender).

Richard
 

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Just another modeller
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**Another simpler thought. Are the Lenz pins longer than the TCS pins? if so they may short on the chassis where the TCS doesn't...

Richard
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 10 Jan 2009, 13:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>**Another simpler thought. Are the Lenz pins longer than the TCS pins? if so they may short on the chassis where the TCS doesn't...

Richard
That's already been suggested elsewhere as a possible cause a few days ago.

The T9 does seem to have more than its normal share of troubles. Makes me wonder if it all goes back to poor quality control by Sanda Kan when Kader were busy rescuing them.
 

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Is this a 6 or 8 wheel tender? I've just installed a TCS DP2X-UK into an 8 wheel tender version of the T9 and it works like a dream. I haven't even taken the capacitor out. There could be an issue, though, with the metal plate that sits above the decoder socket if the decoder isn't insulated adequately and the decoder sits up high out of the socket.

Regards

John R
Bromsgrove Models
 

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Chief cook &amp; bottle washer
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks very much for the replies.
Richard,
Once you tried the Lenz's in another loco did you re-try in the T9? (I'm not suggesting you should necessarily disassemble it again - just wondering)
Yes I did, but still nothing.

I wonder... Could it be that the socket is only wired OK for one direction - OR - more likely, is there maybe a short between any two pins where it won't affect basic motor drive directly... ie in the inside 4 pins.
I've checked and didn't find anything, but I'll re-check, using your method, with fingers crossed.

Also did you try to reverse the lenz decoder in the T9 DCC socket?
Yes.

Which model number was it (I have my fingers crossed that its the watercart tender).

It's R2711. Narrow cab, with six wheel tender.

Another simpler thought. Are the Lenz pins longer than the TCS pins? if so they may short on the chassis where the TCS doesn't...
No, they're about the same length

Going Underground,

The T9 does seem to have more than its normal share of troubles. Makes me wonder if it all goes back to poor quality control by Sanda Kan when Kader were busy rescuing them.

It certainly does make you wonder.

John,
Is this a 6 or 8 wheel tender? I've just installed a TCS DP2X-UK into an 8 wheel tender version of the T9 and it works like a dream. I haven't even taken the capacitor out. There could be an issue, though, with the metal plate that sits above the decoder socket if the decoder isn't insulated adequately and the decoder sits up high out of the socket.

As above, it's a six wheel tender, but I'll certainly be going back to checking for shorts, as I didn't realise that the TCS wouldn't shut down the same as the Lenz does. This is a silver mini, so has a plug. I have a silver direct somewhere, but can't find it (it's in Loco'), but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't fit because of the height.
 

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Chief cook &amp; bottle washer
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We have success
I went back in and re-checked the connections with my multimeter and found a slight current leakage on a solder tag strip at the back of the Loco'. I ran the back of a knife blade between the soldered terminals, being very careful when going across the Loco', not to damage the copper strip that joins the front and rear joints together.
The Lenz silver mini now works perfectly.
Thanks for all your help.
 

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Just another modeller
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*** Well done - It had to be something like that, and I am pleased you found it - It all adds to the pool of experience

Richard
 

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Looks like a quality control issue then.

Although we have discussed QC on MRF a lot & I am certainly an advocate of "send it back everytime" maybe in cases like this the manufacture should be contacted so at least they get some more feedback of QC issues, after all, if they don't know they can't do anything about it.
 

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Chief cook &amp; bottle washer
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Never fear Brian, the manufacturer will certainly hear about this. I totally agree about send it back if it's faulty, but I sent some pullmans back to Hornby for mod's to the couplings, and you wouldn't believe the trouble the English customs and excise mob gave us. To cut a long story short, Someone at Hornby (Simon Kohler I suspect), paid the import duty on my behalf, and then claimed it back so that the job could get done, otherwise, my stock could have sat there in customs foe ever.
I haven't forgotten how well I was treated by Hornby and still say their after sales service is second to none, but this qc issue is one that really needs addressing. I don't know if qc is undertaken by Kander San employees, or if Hornby actually have someone there, but whoever it is needs a rocket to liven them up.


And thanks again to all who helped.
 
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