[dwb]

This thread is prompted by Pedro's call for "The Blue Pullman" (again, you have to admire his tenacity

) in another thread. Rather than hijack that one completely, I've started this one because as disappointed BP fans are only too well aware "The Blue Pullman" train set being offered by Hornby this season (download the full PDF here) is the right colours but that's about it.

Now I was wondering is this Hornby testing the water to see if a "pretty" blue and white train will sell the Christmas train set market and if it is sufficiently popular, will they then authorise tooling of the real thing?

A subsidiary question is, "Is this an attempt to see if 'cute and pretty' sells?".

Our first trainset would have been "The Blue Pullman" if it hadn't been for the "nicer lamps" (my mother's words) in the Britannia hauled Pullman set which we actually got instead.

So any thoughts?

David

 

[rb277170]

Given that they've resurrected models like the Caley 123 and coaches and the Lord of the Isles ,I've always been somewhat confused over Simon Kohlers insistance in not making a Blue Pullman. If you would settle for a retooling of the old BP driving car and one of the trailers it might be a go'er. A new tooling I think is out of the question.

Personally I don't need one- would much rather have a Dunalastair IV if we're talking blue engines!

Russell

 

[ozwarrior]

QUOTE (rb277170 @ 9 Oct 2007, 05:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you would settle for a retooling of the old BP driving car and one of the trailers it might be a go'er. A new tooling I think is out of the question.
Russell

That's about it I reckon and I think Simon feels the old one would need too much doing to it.

I don't know how to do them but a poll here would be interesting:
A - I'll take one a la Lord of the Isles/Caley
B - Yes but it must be super detailed
C - I won't buy one no matter what they do

 

[34C]

Might I suggest expanding the 'B' option.

Are you prepared to pay the estimated £400 for a really good quality fixed formation train?

If you are which would be your preferred choice:

LNER Coronation
Blue Pullman
HST
225

Any of these made to the Trix ICE standard would spring the money from my wallet; in fact I would like them all to display the stylistic lineage.

 

[Jennings]

I can't quite see what the fuss is with the old blue pullman? There must be plenty of other items out there which are probably more in demand ... Well mainly EMUs in my opinion as other than Bachmanns 4CEP there is nothing else which is RTR out there.

 

[Phil Leigh]

QUOTE (Jennings @ 9 Oct 2007, 17:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I can't quite see what the fuss is with the old blue pullman? There must be plenty of other items out there which are probably more in demand ... Well mainly EMUs in my opinion as other than Bachmanns 4CEP there is nothing else which is RTR out there.

I've got a mint RS52 Blue Pullman set = £200. I'd LOVE a modern version - with 6 cars and modern standard tooling/detail, lights, Sound, DCC etc. I would pay £400 for such a thing. Hornby or Bachmann could do it at that price surely?

And what about a high quality APT as above?
or even (on a more modest scale) a lighted beavertail car to go with all those A4's and teak coaches out there...

 

[ozwarrior]

QUOTE (Phil Leigh @ 10 Oct 2007, 04:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I've got a mint RS52 Blue Pullman set = £200. I'd LOVE a modern version - with 6 cars and modern standard tooling/detail, lights, Sound, DCC etc. I would pay £400 for such a thing. Hornby or Bachmann could do it at that price surely?
And what about a high quality APT as above?
or even (on a more modest scale) a lighted beavertail car to go with all those A4's and teak coaches out there...

There's probably a greater chance for the APT than Blue Pullman as less would need to be done with it. Although not likely at super detail standard unfortunately.
I probably should have expanded question 1 to say if it was that standard or nothing.

I agree with you 34C except to say any model of anything would also need to be able to be 'dumbed down' to allow for greater sales reach. The HST is probably the most likely without restarting any debates.

 

[34C]

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 10 Oct 2007, 02:23) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I agree with you 34C except to say any model of anything would also need to be able to be 'dumbed down' to allow for greater sales reach. The HST is probably the most likely without restarting any debates.
Hornby now have a two tier range which can accomodate higher spec more expensive product, and a basic more affordable version. This would enable the model to be introduced at full spec., and a cost down version to subsequently appear in the affordable range. The same body shell and chassis components would be used in their simplest form without separately applied detail parts, no close coupling mechanism, no lighting or sound fit, a lower cost motor without flywheels, and a simplified paint job. The component cost and count reduction, and consequent reduced assembly and finishing process, should deliver a significant cost saving to enable an affordable price for mass sales.

I too believe the HST is the most likely candidate for a high spec fixed formation train; still in operation after long service in a wide range of liveries. Here of course no cost down affordable version needs development, it is currently in production.

 

[pedromorgan]

Well i have been away for few days so i have not had a chance to weigh in on this one, but here goes.

For a start i want to make something perfectly clear.
I have never asked for a high spec all singing all dancing model. i simply dont think it would be viable concidering the tooling costs. i am totally realistic about my requests for a BP.

My second point is one that anything would be far better than what is available now - nothing.

There have been countless kits announced (for example D.C. Kits and Intercity models.) but nothin has ever come to fruition.
I even looked at producing a kit myself but i found it couldnt be done using methods with which i am familiar. the problem is not as some think the ends but rather the roofs of the power cars. it cant be realistically done through etching. it either needs a resin cast or an injection moulded part.

The hornby model is not great, but the collectors would love it. i dont think the chassis is really that big a problem. a central motor driving both bogies is not rocket science buy todays standards and i suspect in hornby's back catalogue they should have such a mechanism that could be easily adapted without much more effort than the singles have been.

If it was sold as part of the railroad range and at a reasonable cost then it would provide a good basis for kitbashing to a more accurate model. the trailers are about an inch short but for those of us that are fussy then it is perfectly feasable to lengthen them and correct the discrepencies.

They would need to replace the bogies on the trailers but if it was going to be part fo the railroad range then i am sure a close bogie could be found from their existing range/intl range could be found that would surfice, and those of us that are fussy can source correct bogies.

there were many detail differences on the BP's (multiple working cables/yellow ends/reverced livery) that would keep the kit bashers happy.

Apart from proving youngsters with a way into the hobby, the railroad range provides people with a low cost basis for kit bashers and detailers.

It is an increasing worry that fewer and fewer people in our hobby are actually doing any modelling. I really hope the railroad range can start to adress this. i have already ordered a shed load of tankers (that have been delayed because of demand) that i intend to produce how-to's on detailing them.

As for the APT i have been told that the moulds are in excellent condition. i think it would be a great seller in the railroad range. its sleek and striking. again as for the BP there are plenty of modelling excercises that could be easily tackeled buy relative beginners for a fairly low cost. the motor is still current in some of their models so it would be easy to produce it pretty much as it was origionally sold. we might need a crappy pantograph because the origional cant be made cheaply. but it could be easily swapped with a sommerfeld for anyone who is fussy.

Peter

 

[Brian Considine]

Although personally I have no interest at all in a BP I agree wholeheartedly with Peter - so much makes perfect sense.

Regarding motor bogies I saw some excellent looking ones last weekend at Croydon - called "Bullant" or something - could be just the thing to up the performance of some of the existing or proposed models.

 

[Ravenser]

pedromorgan
QUOTE a central motor driving both bogies is not rocket science buy todays standards and i suspect in hornby's back catalogue they should have such a mechanism that could be easily adapted without much more effort than the singles have been.

Sadly they don't.

A Co-Co centre drive, yes , but Hornby don't have an 8 wheel centre drive mechanism anywhere in the range. Hence the pancake motor in the Pendolino, hence the new Limby 4 wheel motor bogie, and the lack of a revamped HST. They badly need to develop one, but there are plenty of things to be upgraded elsewhere in the range , they have European ranges to think about, the emphasis in RTR is swinging away from modern image back to steam , and there are always 5 other issues to distract them from biting this particular bullet

 

[34C]

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 10 Oct 2007, 13:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>but Hornby don't have an 8 wheel centre drive mechanism anywhere in the range.
The Limby 67?

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 10 Oct 2007, 13:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>pedromorgan
Sadly they don't.

What about the International Range then ?

 

[7113]

QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 10 Oct 2007, 13:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What about the International Range then ?

Where's that then?

Regards

 

[pedromorgan]

QUOTE (BRITHO @ 10 Oct 2007, 13:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Where's that then?

Regards

Thjey have plenty of mechs to be able to basically choose one "off the peg".
i think the pendo got the pancake because someone at Hornby was being tight fisted.

the BP may need a new chassis moulding but thats not the end of the world.

Peter

 

[7113]

QUOTE (Jennings @ 9 Oct 2007, 17:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well mainly EMUs in my opinion as other than Bachmanns 4CEP there is nothing else which is RTR out there.

I wouldn't exactly call it "out there" - as far as I am aware this is now due at the end of 2008.

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 10 Oct 2007, 02:23) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There's probably a greater chance for the APT than Blue Pullman as less would need to be done with it. Although not likely at super detail standard unfortunately.

Very true, there is though the problem that the APT was even more restricted in operation than the Blue Pullmans.

Although I would not need one I do have fond memories of them at the end of their working lives in the revised/reversed livery. The last time I saw one was in a South Wales scrapyard in the early 70's.

Regards

 

[Ravenser]

Every British outline loco with centre drive Hornby have developed has been 6 axle. Bo-Bos have been conspicous by their absence, and there was a suggestion at some point - I think when the 50 was released -that the Hornby 6 axle drive had been adapted from something originally produced for the US market by someone else

I don't know how adaptable the 67 mechanism would be though there were build quality issues when Lima released it, and there have been repeated calls , albeit unrealistic in my own view, for the model to be retooled

I'm also not clear what exactly is in the cupboard over at Hornby International.But I do recall someone on here being quite critical of the running quality of the old Jouef models before Hornby took over. I've also got a feeling the big SNCF freight diesel they released is a Co-Co. Have they in fact rereleased any 4 axle HO diesels or electrics yet? And is it possible the inherited Jouef drives aren't up to the standard we would generally expect today?

Apart from the 67 , I don't know of any 4 axle diesel or electric in any Hornby range fitted with centre motor/both bogies driven mechanism. Every new diesel they have developed in recent years has been 6 axle -including the Alco they announced for the Spanish market. It's really quite noticeable they are stepping carefully round 4 axle prototypes

In all seriousness - can anyone point to a model in their range or inherited ex Jouef that has the requisite drive? What exactly is in the Jouef and Lima TGVs? I'd be cautious of assuming they "must have one " unless someone can identify a model with it in

I can think of quite a few models in the Hornby range that could do with an upgrade but seem to be stuck on this particular issue - 86, 90, HST, 25, 35 (though Heljan have superceeded it) . The trouble is none, on their own seem to justify biting the bullet once for all. So they go off and do another kettle instead

BRITHO
QUOTE Very true, there is though the problem that the APT was even more restricted in operation than the Blue Pullmans

Unlike the APT , the Blue Pullman actually made it into regular service...

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 10 Oct 2007, 17:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm also not clear what exactly is in the cupboard over at Hornby International.

Have a look at the Hornby International website & check out the service sheets - there is at least one BoBo with can motor & two flywheels - that should make it a bit clearer instead of speculating.

 

[ozwarrior]

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 11 Oct 2007, 02:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm also not clear what exactly is in the cupboard over at Hornby International.But I do recall someone on here being quite critical of the running quality of the old Jouef models before Hornby took over. I've also got a feeling the big SNCF freight diesel they released is a Co-Co. Have they in fact rereleased any 4 axle HO diesels or electrics yet? And is it possible the inherited Jouef drives aren't up to the standard we would generally expect today?
Apart from the 67 , I don't know of any 4 axle diesel or electric in any Hornby range fitted with centre motor/both bogies driven mechanism. Every new diesel they have developed in recent years has been 6 axle -including the Alco they announced for the Spanish market. It's really quite noticeable they are stepping carefully round 4 axle prototypes

I have in my collection precisely this loco:
http://www.tee-usa.com/store/product231.html
As you can see it's a bo-bo with a central motor driving all axles. I run it regularly as it does all I want. It also has a beautifully fine pantograph...86/87 potential here?
So the only conclusion one can come to is: well two conclusions:
1 - They have not got around to it yet
2 - They choose not to
Let's hope it's the first.

 

[pedromorgan]

The later lima TGV also had a 4 axle mech.

Peter