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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Currently being splashed in the 'Engine Shed', EP of the new 9F tooling.

But oh dear, I can see a readily discernable dimensional error in the photographs, and I expect this represents what is to be produced, as what are definitely new components which necessarily match the incorrect dimensions are shown.

The driven axle centres should all be spaced at the same dimension; the model doesn't replicate this. (Hornby have probably perpetuated the incorrect driven wheel base from their previous model.) For me this is a 'once seen, cannot be ignored' defect.
 

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That is amazing £252.99 it was nowhere near that price when I preordered it last year. Me thinks it may be time to cancel. £40 more and I can get a decent sound fitted loco from Bachmann or Dapol especially as Bachmann seem to be getting decent chassis with brass bearings. I recently bought the class 812 off Rails with sound and nothing fell off it like the Hush Hush I bought from Hornby.
 

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Re the driving wheel spacing think that is common to most OO 9Fs due to the overscale flanges. Expect the Hornby one to be excellent until someones sneezes near it at which point half the detailing will fall or break off. Hornbys inability to use the correct materials for detail components is astonishing given the price they charge but I suppose it helps their profits.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
...especially as Bachmann seem to be getting decent chassis with brass bearings...
Specific to the Bachmann 9F, my four specimens have been galloping around the layout for 15 years now, pulling trains of up to 2.5kg, and keep in mind I operate daily if possible. Still run equally smoothly compared to the brass bearing models I use. I reckon that the light plastic compatible greases now available do the job of wear reduction much better than the oil of the past, when significant wear was observable in mazak chassis block axle holes.
Re the driving wheel spacing think that is common to most OO 9Fs due to the overscale flanges...
Until we can persuade more manufacturers to take up the 0.6mm flange depth that Heljan have been using, we are stuck with the need for compromise when wheels are closely spaced, to enable the flanges of adjacent wheelsets to clear. Bachmann opted for equidistant axle spacing on their 9F, the compromise an extra 0.5mm, so a 2mm overlength coupled wheelbase. I have yet to read a single complaint about this, let alone a review that picked this up; but what is evident is equidistant axle spacing as on the prototype, a better compromise in my opinion.
 

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Specific to the Bachmann 9F, my four specimens have been galloping around the layout for 15 years now, pulling trains of up to 2.5kg, and keep in mind I operate daily if possible. Still run equally smoothly compared to the brass bearing models I use. I reckon that the light plastic compatible greases now available do the job of wear reduction much better than the oil of the past, when significant wear was observable in mazak chassis block axle holes.

Until we can persuade more manufacturers to take up the 0.6mm flange depth that Heljan have been using, we are stuck with the need for compromise when wheels are closely spaced, to enable the flanges of adjacent wheelsets to clear. Bachmann opted for equidistant axle spacing on their 9F, the compromise an extra 0.5mm, so a 2mm overlength coupled wheelbase. I have yet to read a single complaint about this, let alone a review that picked this up; but what is evident is equidistant axle spacing as on the prototype, a better compromise in my opinion.
Thanks for the information on the Bachmann 9F, I will see about regreasing mine. It definitely looks a lot better than the Hornby one
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Thanks for the information on the Bachmann 9F, I will see about regreasing mine. It definitely looks a lot better than the Hornby one.
You have reminded me that a purchase of lube needs to be on my shopping list.

Bachmann's 9F was a definite 'knockout' effort, recognising that the Hornby 9F model as it then existed was very popular, and taken overall was a success. The drive was significantly better than what was by then the norm in their UK steam range, a larger motor with a flywheel, and plenty of weight for traction installed in the roomy interior. As for the detail, I felt it was worth the money for the brake fit alone (anyone doubting just try it by DIY with metal brake gear). And of course the essential BR1F tender for BR(ER) deployment, something Hornby had never bothered with.


There are aspects that could be improved, some easy by DIY, others more difficult; the big one in my view the representation of the frame top edges, which the new Hornby tooling looks to have. But that's no good when a clear dimensional error immediately adjacent is on view. The most exquisitely produced Nine pound note is always WRONG!
 

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And a new price of £252.99 :oops:
This is happening with every new release from Hornby, I was going to buy the farewell tour HST set until you realise it’s £363 for effectively a Loco and a coach!

I wonder if Simon Kohler has had the television series gone to his head?
 
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This is happening with every new release from Hornby, I was going to buy the farewell tour HST set until you realise it’s £363 for effectively a Loco and a coach!

I wonder if Simon Kohler has had the television series gone to his head?
I did that same comparison a year ago when I bought the City of Edinburgh.and that was at £264. Even if you took the latest class 90 from Bachmann and complimented it with the dummy trailer from Hornby I don't think I would get near the new price. You might if you added the new sound option with pantograph control. Only time will tell, I may be wrong but I don't think there is that much money out there. The cost of living is getting high which means there is less money for hobbies. I wonder if Bachmann will increase their prices, they are beginning to look pretty cheap against the new Hornby ones.
 

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This is happening with every new release from Hornby, I was going to buy the farewell tour HST set until you realise it’s £363 for effectively a Loco and a coach!

I wonder if Simon Kohler has had the television series gone to his head?
Same here - on all the retailer websites they show an RRP of £329 and now its £363 on the Hornby website as you say. I have sent an email to Hornby asking for an explanation...
 

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Specific to the Bachmann 9F, my four specimens have been galloping around the layout for 15 years now, pulling trains of up to 2.5kg, and keep in mind I operate daily if possible. Still run equally smoothly compared to the brass bearing models I use. I reckon that the light plastic compatible greases now available do the job of wear reduction much better than the oil of the past, when significant wear was observable in mazak chassis block axle holes.

Until we can persuade more manufacturers to take up the 0.6mm flange depth that Heljan have been using, we are stuck with the need for compromise when wheels are closely spaced, to enable the flanges of adjacent wheelsets to clear. Bachmann opted for equidistant axle spacing on their 9F, the compromise an extra 0.5mm, so a 2mm overlength coupled wheelbase. I have yet to read a single complaint about this, let alone a review that picked this up; but what is evident is equidistant axle spacing as on the prototype, a better compromise in my opinion.
No! The problem with Heljan flanges is they derail when going over any slight hump and eight coupled chassis just cantilver of the tracks. Good running is far more important than a small inaccuracy
 

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I got my Bachmann one out this afternoon and immediately realised why I don't use it much. It doesn't have tender pickups now I know that they are not an absolute requirement but they do give better running.
 

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Trevoro, you terrify me, what has Heljan to do with this or is it a copy of something you see on the loco?

'No! The problem with Heljan flanges is they derail when going over any slight hump and eight coupled chassis just cantilver of the tracks. Good running is far more important than a small inaccuracy.'

Any way if it comes in too expensive they can forget it, I have 9 of these by Bachman and they are all great, pull the CMX up the 1 in 30, I love 'em but if they are not close in price then it'll flop surely Hornby would not be so dumb!
 

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Trevoro, you terrify me, what has Heljan to do with this or is it a copy of something you see on the loco?

'No! The problem with Heljan flanges is they derail when going over any slight hump and eight coupled chassis just cantilver of the tracks. Good running is far more important than a small inaccuracy.'

Any way if it comes in too expensive they can forget it, I have 9 of these by Bachman and they are all great, pull the CMX up the 1 in 30, I love 'em but if they are not close in price then it'll flop surely Hornby would not be so dumb!
There was a reply saying that Hornby/Bachmann should adopt Heljan flange depths and then the 9f could have correct wheel distances, I replied that would be disastrous for running quality
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
No! The problem with Heljan flanges is they derail when going over any slight hump and eight coupled chassis just cantilever of the tracks. Good running is far more important than a small inaccuracy...
I am solidly in agreement about the importance of reliable running, and operate Heljan 2-8-0's. They would have been swiftly returned if they didn't stay on the rails, but have proved completely reliable.

I would suggest that 'slight humps' in the track are a potential problem for any rail vehicle, and really should be rectified as a priority.
 

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These minor humps are totally in scale with the protype and with track laid on concrete rectrificating is difficult no other models in my fleet of over 500 cause problems in including kit built loco with scale wheels. The problem only occurs at a couple of locations one when coming off a cantered high speed track curve in a cast concrete tunnel, the Heljan loocs are not to the agreed RP25 wheel standard and another on a cured point 5ft radius where as many Peco points do over time distort slightly raisong the area around the frog. The APT ran around my layout at 170 MPH scale speed for 3 Hours withot derailment the garden layout is a great test track for how stock should run. If its only one piece of stock that causes a problem the problem is the stock if several locos cause a problem its the track. Many other modellers hvae complained about similar problems with Heljan steam locos.
 

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I have two Heljan O2's and a 47xx plus a Garrett, those two are OK but the O2'd are alright on my tracks but the pony truck on the older ones liked to do its own thing which did not include running on the track barely at all even when the track is all streamline and around R6 it suicides on points until I fitted a wheelset with deeper flanges but I am now very distrustful of Heljan although I would rate the 47xx as quite good their best effort yet so I would rather have Hornby clearances as I always say these have good track manners and work nicely but the Bachman 9F is still the one to beat.

47xx from Heljan
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
These minor humps are totally in scale with the prototype and with track laid on concrete rectifying is difficult no other models in my fleet of over 500 cause problems including kit built loco with scale wheels. The problem only occurs at a couple of locations one when coming off a canted high speed track curve in a cast concrete tunnel,...and another on a curved point 5ft radius where as many Peco points do over time distort slightly raising the area around the frog...
This additional detail puts a different perspective on the problem, as it's a couple of identified locations where the combination of rigid chassis and shallower flanges is unable to accommodate the transitions in rail level on curves. So you know what the problem is, but the construction precludes action.

My Heljan 2-8-0s are currently 'route restricted' to the slow lines due to occasional inability to handle one of the cant transitions on the fast lines, but this will be fixable by extending the transition. Knowing what the limitations are, enables the problem to be eliminated.

...the Heljan locos are not to the agreed RP25 wheel standard...
My focus is all on the benefits of a shallower flange for better scale models, particularly of steam locos with closely grouped drivers where 'dimensional fiddling' is currently necessary - sometimes done well, sometimes badly - which a flange 0.6mm deep pretty much eliminates. There's quite a lot I don't like about the Heljan steam loco construction, but I cannot fault the resulting superior appearance of the wheels compared to most RTR OO.

The lack of a 'native' wheel profile and dimension standard for RTR OO is a bugbear, but (with occasional lapses) the approach of using the RP25-110 as the basis works well. I believe we are about to see another test of this shallower (0.6mm) flange on a steam loco, as the few Accurascale wagons I have purchased offer this: waiting to see if this is carried through to the GW Manor they have announced.

...The APT ran around my layout at 170 MPH scale speed for 3 Hours without derailment the garden layout is a great test track for how stock should run. If its only one piece of stock that causes a problem the problem is the stock if several locos cause a problem its the track. Many other modellers have complained about similar problems with Heljan steam locos.
Now this is exciting! There are altogether too few railway modellers active on forums that really operate their model railways, and this limits the information on longevity and reliability of mechanisms and vehicle running gear when put to the test of significant use. I look forward to reading more.
 

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Currently being splashed in the 'Engine Shed', EP of the new 9F tooling.

But oh dear, I can see a readily discernable dimensional error in the photographs, and I expect this represents what is to be produced, as what are definitely new components which necessarily match the incorrect dimensions are shown.

The driven axle centres should all be spaced at the same dimension; the model doesn't replicate this. (Hornby have probably perpetuated the incorrect driven wheel base from their previous model.) For me this is a 'once seen, cannot be ignored' defect.
I had an early Hornby (ex Triang) 9F (Evening Star) that I got from a train fair for possibly £25 back in the 90's in Temple Meads, It was my favourite steam loco, but unfortunately the wheelbase didn't like one of my curves on my layout at the time and it had "Silver Seal" wheels and was also tender drive. So I sold it some years later. Anyway I got back in to the hobby recently and picked up a Railroad model (possibly 10 years old) off ebay for £50, in fantastic condition, but the drawbar bolt snapped in transit, anyway fixed it. and for £50 I'm chuffed, the railroad model is as good (if not better) than the Bachmann stuff from late 90's 00's. Hornby really have sorted it out. Price was very low IMO and I think I got a bargain. However I did recently pick up a Cock-O-The-North P2 Railroad model off Amazon brand new for £83, I thought this was a bargain too hence why purchased, something about lots of driving wheels and deflectors, anyway. Pricing is a hot topic, I'm affraid I now ignore the railways range, simply too pricey, Railroad (don't like the name much) but I like what it delivers, so always interested in what they bring to the table. I'd like to second that the current 9f chassis is a vast improvement over the old and my 9f happily negotitates 1st radius curves, granted it slows a little but doesn't de-rail. Hornby really do set the standard at the moment for chassis and drive systems, just a shame prices can be high. Unfortunatley it's railroad or 2nd hand for me.
 
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