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Although there is probably no such thing to please everyone, looking over the various posts made on this (& other forums/groups) many, many steam outline locomotives are lacking in some respects. Based on my observations of what other people (& myself) would like to see I have come up with the following features that should be able to be incorportated in an OO/HO RTR (largish) steam outline locomotive.

5/7 pole motor with flywheel mounted in the tender, powering the locomotive driving wheels via a shaft.
Decoder socket in the tender, accessible via an easy clip off body (or 2 screws at most) with no danger of damage to fine detailing. Room for a variety of decoders.
Tender underframe in metal to increase stability.
Adjustable length drawbar.
Locomotive/tender fully wired for lights/sound.
Plenty of weight in locomotive or (main body in die-cast with plastic detailing) to assist traction & stability.
Space (in firebox ?) for loudspeaker.
Delicate detail parts moulded in flexible material.
Possible alternative parts, such as fully detailed "front ends" & "more accurate" or "practical" pony wheels/piston rod covers.
Not forgetting the wealth of detail & attention to accuracy that we now expect as standard.
And, of course a locomotive of this caliber should be able to handle an absolute minimum of 10 "average weight/running" coaches with ease.

Any more features to add ?

Dread to think of the cost though
 

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All the items mentioned above sound very desirable, not sure about the shaft drive from the tender to the engine? did,nt rocco have a "royal scot" with that arrangment? was it succesful? if it was, it did,nt seem to catch on. The additional cost of these proposals would surely push the cost of these locomotives beyond what most people would be prepared to pay? I personally think that the RTR manufacturers are doing a great job, we are getting a continual flow of new locos and stock at not unreasonable cost, of which, the detail and running qualities far exceed any thing that came before, we must be careful that we don't finish up catering to a minority, and then loosing a whole industry because things have gone too far, and become too expensive.
 

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>not sure about the shaft drive from the tender to the engine?
Neil reviewed one of these recently; I'm sure he will be along in a moment with the link.

David
 

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Rivarrossi used this feature a couple of times, the one I remeber was the 4-4-0 with the huge spark-arrestor chimley (also marketed by Airfix). Roco use this feature but they power both the tender wheels and the "driving" wheels on some models.

BTW - I was not advocating that all RTR locomotives had to have all the features, just being hypothetical ! I agree that by & large the RTR manufacurers do a pretty good job.
 

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I'd like a smoke generator and fire box glow synchronised with the sound of shovelling.

David
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
QUOTE (Dennis David @ 26 Dec 2006, 17:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would add that I wanted to see the motor in the boiler and the connector be 21 pin to a future NMRA standard.

The reason to put the motor in the tender was to increase the weight over the driving wheels - I'd be OK with the 21-pin decoder socket provided an 8-pin adaptor was supplied.
 

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Are there any British steam locos that have flywheels in them? As much as I hate comparisons that's one area where overseas models are ahead I feel.
 

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>Are there any British steam locos that have flywheels in them?
The Bachmann 9F. Check out Doug's review for a photo.

David
 

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QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 26 Dec 2006, 21:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Although there is probably no such thing to please everyone, looking over the various posts made on this (& other forums/groups) many, many steam outline locomotives are lacking in some respects. Based on my observations of what other people (& myself) would like to see I have come up with the following features that should be able to be incorportated in an OO/HO RTR (largish) steam outline locomotive.

5/7 pole motor with flywheel mounted in the tender, powering the locomotive driving wheels via a shaft.
Decoder socket in the tender, accessible via an easy clip off body (or 2 screws at most) with no danger of damage to fine detailing. Room for a variety of decoders.
Tender underframe in metal to increase stability.
Adjustable length drawbar.
Locomotive/tender fully wired for lights/sound.
Plenty of weight in locomotive or (main body in die-cast with plastic detailing) to assist traction & stability.
Space (in firebox ?) for loudspeaker.
Delicate detail parts moulded in flexible material.
Possible alternative parts, such as fully detailed "front ends" & "more accurate" or "practical" pony wheels/piston rod covers.
Not forgetting the wealth of detail & attention to accuracy that we now expect as standard.
And, of course a locomotive of this caliber should be able to handle an absolute minimum of 10 "average weight/running" coaches with ease.

Any more features to add ?

Dread to think of the cost though

What has been described above is just about all locos from Maerklin/Trix or Brawa. Except for the tender drive shaft thing which is popular with Roco and Lilliput. Brawa and Trix/Maerklin don't seem to go for that. We had a lot of debate on this issue a long time ago (cost versus quality) and many UK modellers were pretty adamant that the UK market would not sustain top end (Micro Metakit) or even middling quality locos (Maerklin/Trix, Fleischmann) and that only budget locos (Hornby, Bachmann) would sell. I would and do pay for these extra features but I do seem to be in a minority.

QUOTE I personally think that the RTR manufacturers are doing a great job

Depends who you are referring to as RTR. I wouldn't consider a product as RTR if it requires modification in some way or other. It's only RTR if I don't have to do anything to it as far as I'm concerned. Whether it's couplers, smoke unit, sound decoder, extra weight or whatever I believe it should be fully featured and run perfectly out of the box. So I would agree with the above statement but I'm pretty sure my interpretation of RTR (Trix, Brawa, Roco) is very different from what was intended.

QUOTE Neil reviewed one of these recently; I'm sure he will be along in a moment with the link.
Well here it is.

Brawa BR06

These aren't steam but this review shows the difference between what you get if you are and aren't prepared to pay for quality. Spot the difference. ICE3 v GNER 225



QUOTE I would add that I wanted to see the motor in the boiler and the connector be 21 pin to a future NMRA standard. Why do you prefer the 21 pin decoder David? Does it have any major benefits?

QUOTE I'd like a smoke generator and fire box glow synchronised with the sound of shovelling. Most Continental outline have smoke generators fitted or are prepared so you can just slot them in. Some have glowing smoke boxes but unfortunately you have to press a function button for the shovelling.

I'm off to put on my hard hat now for when the inevitable defensive Hornbyists read the above reviews.
 

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"These aren't steam but this review shows the difference between what you get if you are and aren't prepared to pay for quality. Spot the difference. ICE3 v GNER 225"

As much as this is a nice model, I think that it isn't so much an issue with British RTR not being able to due the same standard but that the British hobby as a whole won't pay the prices demanded.

I would like a 125 with all the bells and whistles and pay £300+ but I would be a very small minority of punters and there in lies the problem for Hornby and Bachmann.

Slowly prices are rising for RTR steam and diesel and the punters are taking this on board and the models are selling well, the next step is coming where we will start to see high detail trains but I think it may be 5-10 years down the line before Jo modeler is prepared to shell out a large sum of money on a train pack.

I have the VSOE set and although it was over £200, I got quite a lot back by selling the power supply and track as I didn't need them so the over all cost came down.

Hopefully the new Hornby Pendalino may up the stakes another notch and get us a step closer but it's going to be a few years yet unfortunately until I can get my HST 9 car set!! Class 222 9 car meridian wouldn't go amiss either.

Darren
 

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You didn't mention tender pickups. Forget drive shafts between loco and tender it's a non starter. Put the motor in the loco, and lot's of weight. The decoder, plug and speaker in the tender and a simple plug joint between loco and tender. I like the firebox flicker. Unfortunately someones going to get clever with the smoke unit and not use Sleuthe units, I have memories of a wrecked 28XX caused by a poor Hornby smoke unit. Broadway know how to do it, so Hornby or Bachmann have something to copy.
 

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QUOTE I would like a 125 with all the bells and whistles and pay £300+ but I would be a very small minority of punters and there in lies the problem for Hornby and Bachmann. Agreed, I am also in that minority and would like to see UK outline made to this standard but I don't see it happenning anytime soon. Hornby are focussed only on the budget market and are unlikely to re-adjust that focus. I do hope that Trix/Maerklin who already make some European (other than German ) outline extend that to UK outline. I don't really care if it's HO instead of OO as long as it's not as big a disapointment as the GNER 225.

With the tender drive shaft thing I have a couple of these and where I have an issue is that it is awkward to separate these. You have to unplug the decoder connector and then the axle which connects the loco and the tender and then finally the drive shaft. When you're doing this with a highly detailed loco it is a hassle. I prefer the Maerklin/Trix & Brawa idea of having the motor in the metal body and having the decoder and speaker in the tender. The metal body gives good weight for traction.

Other features I'd like to add are extensions to the smoke unit to have steam coming form other places in the loco other than just the chimney. I've seen this in larger scales so if someone could get thjis down to HO/OO sclae then great, I'll have one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 27 Dec 2006, 23:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You didn't mention tender pickups.

Forgot pickups entirely ! - correct that to "pick ups on all wheels" then.

See your (& Neil/Dennis') points about the shaft drive - maybe then go for motor in loco/metal body/plastic detailing/speaker & decoder plug in tender ?

I've probably missed more things out in that case !
 

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QUOTE (Thunder @ 26 Dec 2006, 10:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>not sure about the shaft drive from the tender to the engine? did,nt rocco have a "royal scot" with that arrangment? was it succesful?

The loco in question was in fact made by Rivarossi and is actually a very nice model. The shaft drive works well, unless you re-assemble the darn thing incorrectly, which believe me is easily done!!

It is in fact the only mainline steam loco in my fleet.

Regards

John
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
QUOTE (Dennis David @ 28 Dec 2006, 18:38) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Here's a dumb question. Why wouldn't you want the motor and drive in the locomotive leaving the tender for the decoder and speaker? Aren't the drive wheels of the locomotive enough and wouldn't you want the weight there?

I dont have a problem with the motor in the locomotive - I just suggested an alternative bearing in mind that whatever they actually use for weights these days would probably weigh more than a motor/flywheel.

In my experience the drive wheels of my Taw Valley definatly were not enough - had just about enough traction to pull away with 2 or 3 coaches !
 

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I was watching a DVD last night of steam in Glasgow in the 50's and 60's and the thought occurred to me that most sound on board locos don't have the depth of bass needed for an authentic sound. Maybe the speakers need to be worked on to give that deep base sound?
 
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