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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been doing some research recently about the Midland Railway and have noted that they were the first to introduce Pullman Cars to the UK in 1874. However, I have not been able to come across much information as to what happened to these carriages. There does not seem to be a lot of information freely available on this topic. Did the policy of using Pullman cars on the Midland continue into LMS days? Was it abandoned due to the expansion of the Southerns Pullman Car range? What sort of Pullman cars did the midland operate?

I notice that Wrenn did some maroon "LMS Pullman" coaches so I assume the LMS did run them and they were maroon, but there seems to be a frustrating lack of information on this topic available!

Can any of the more knowledgeable folk shed some light on this topic?

Thanks,

Rob
 

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*** In a nutshell

The Midlands pullmans were originally ex USA in the classic US Pullman style. Midland and Later LMS allocated Pullman workshops space at the Derby carriage works.

When the pullman contact expired after grouping, LMS declined to renew the pullman contact and took the service and coaches on themselves. They were all as far as I know allocated to Scotland, and the diagrammes at that time were not very different to the classic matchboard side pullmans marketed now by Hornby. LMS painted them in lined Lake.

Pullman still continued operating from buildings close to LMS carriage works in Derby...

The images I have of Midland pullmans in the later diagrammes seem to show 6 wheel bogies not 4 wheel as per Hornby Pullmans - I too would like more specific info if anyone has it. (I do have some ex Jenkins Essery (Midland carriages, LMS Carriages etc) but its far from complete data).

I intend to re-bogie and repaint a couple using the data I have soon, so any data prior to that project will be greatly appreciated - Otherwise I can guarantee just as I add the completed fully lined coaches to the layout, someone will say "no, that coach had seven windows not eight" or something similarly annoying!!

Richard

PS: I'd really appreciate any detailed info on the lining for the LNWR Royal train coaches after LMS repainted them too..... That will motivate me to get the kits I have built!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
For what its worth, I found this picture of the Wrenn LMS Pullmans. Seem to me to be just repaints of their standard Pullmans. May well bear little resemblance to the real things. I've been through a few of my books but can't find any more info than what Richard has posted.

Here's the picture of the Wrenn Pullmans:



Rob
 

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A good source of Pullman information is Terry Bye's "Coupé News". I don't know if it has covered the MR cars, but may be worth a search. You can find it at http://www.semgonline.com/coach/coupe/index.html. The only picture I've seen of an MR car is in Cuthbert Hamilton Ellis's "The Midland Railway", Ian Allan, 1955, p167. The picture shows a conversion to a push-pull carriage, which would account for one of them. I am sure it is long out of print, so it is probably OK to scan it and send it for private use if that would be helpful.
 

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There is a book by B. Haresnape "Pullman - Travelling in Style" published in 1987 which may be useful, although I've not seen it myself.

The 1913 Pullman Car 'Topaz' is preserved by the NRM, but I don't have a picture of it and it originally ran on the SE & Chatham Railway anyway! There is a MR Dining Car which dates from the same period and definately has 6-wheel bogies.

The NRM 'Search Engine' is probably worth trying.

Regards,
John Webb
 

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The Pullman Cars in Scotland were inherited from the Caledonian Railway who availed themselves of Pullman Dining Car facilities prior to the Grouping.

The best reference is in LMS Journal No. 13 - an article by David Jenkinson on LMS Dining Cars in Scotland.

The LMS continued to operate Pullmans in Scotland until the contract between Pullman and the former Caledonian Railway expired. The cars then passed to the LMS, some surviving into the 1950s and the BR era.

There were some 12 wheelers and some eight wheelers - the story is complex!
 

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I might add that the LMS took over the ex Caley Pullmans in 1934 and some good pictures appear in LMS Journal 14.

I did a repaint of one of the old Hornby Pullmans years ago and I am sure that study would provide an almost exact match with the currently available matchboarded ones.
 

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QUOTE (andrew @ 6 Dec 2008, 18:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>A good source of Pullman information is Terry Bye's "Coupé News". I don't know if it has covered the MR cars, but may be worth a search. You can find it at http://www.semgonline.com/coach/coupe/index.html. The only picture I've seen of an MR car is in Cuthbert Hamilton Ellis's "The Midland Railway", Ian Allan, 1955, p167. The picture shows a conversion to a push-pull carriage, which would account for one of them. I am sure it is long out of print, so it is probably OK to scan it and send it for private use if that would be helpful.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the link to Coupe News, I'm just about to start working my way through all the issues to see what I can find, some very interesting stuff!

Will send you a PM regarding the scan.

Thanks,

Rob
 

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'Pullman (travelling in style)' by Brian Haresnape pub Ian Allan; is a good summary history of Pullman cars in the UK, and well illustrated to show the development in appearance as the designs evolved from the original US clerestory roof open end platform design.
 

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QUOTE (34C @ 8 Dec 2008, 20:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>'Pullman (travelling in style)' by Brian Haresnape pub Ian Allan; is a good summary history of Pullman cars in the UK, and well illustrated to show the development in appearance as the designs evolved from the original US clerestory roof open end platform design.

*** Hi

Does it discuss the all the various pre-nationalisation regions and the diagrammes/allocation they ran or does it focus on Southern and LNER usage? If it covers Midland, Caley and what the LMS did with the Pullmans they took into LMS stock after the end of contact, then I'll seek it out.

Richard
 

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Richard,

At the time of publication it was as full a summary as could be compiled relating to Pullman car company operations in the UK from the first Midland acquisition, and as far as I recall pretty much covers 'everything' until BR bought out the contract. Not sure if it is still in print, ISBN 0-7110-1648-8 in case that helps. Unfortunately I no longer have the book and cannot recall if it definitely deals with the LMS and BR history of the ex-Caledonian cars once they came into the LMS' possession. What I do recall is that the Caledonian contract expired in the mid 1930's, and the LMS then liveried them in their stock maroon and branded them as restaurant cars, some vehicles continuing into BR operation painted crimson and cream.
 

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A fairly comprehensive coverage is in R W Kidner's Pullman Trains in Britain by Oakwood Press.
Pullman ran a number of cars on the Midland between 1874 and 1888 or so. They were the open balconied old fashioned type with cleretory roof, looking a bit like the coaches in old US movies. In the 1880's the Midland actually bought most of them as various agreements ran out, whilst some were transferred to the southern lines. By 1911 they were getting a bit worn out so the Pullman name was removed and they found use on football specials. Pullman also built 4 sleeping cars for the Midland.
The Highland had a couple of short sleeping cars but they were taken out of service in 1907.
The cars that look more familiar that ran on the LMS were the ones that were supplied to the Caledonian in 1914 with more being added in 1922 and 1927, looking similar to the Hornby products. All 22 cars were bought by the LMS in 1932 and, apart from the observation car, Maid of Morven, all were painted in LMS livery.
The GNR dabbled in the 1870's but gave up, and the GER was the main user in the LNER group, which started extra services from Kings Cross in 1923. and also received the Metropolitan pair later.
The GWR only had one train of Pullmans, which only ran for a year.
Otherwise the rest is down to the southern lines, with the LBSCR carrying the torch for the longest, and the SECR ran both Pullman and Gilbert cars on their trains.
 

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Thanks 34C and Nick - that adds to my knowledge as well as Robs.

It may be stretching memories to ask, but does either book have info as to the diagrammes used - ie line drawings or pictures - I ask as the one LMS painted pullman photo I have seems to have a different window count to the hornby coaches and be on 6 wheel bogies..

I ask as re-painting and re-lining is no problem, but I'd like to get at least the primary stuff right first - bogies, matchwood or plated sides, basic window count and interior layout....

Nick. A leading question - is there enough hard info to make it worth buying that book? Is it current?

Sincere thanks

Richard
 

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Richard
The Kidner book is still on Oakwood's list, it is a fairly recent publication and is in their modern format, although it is an enlargement of his old book on Pullmans on the Southern.
In answer to your first question, it depends on what you want from it. As its history suggests, it is pretty comprehensive on the Southern lines, but also gives extensive coverage of the LNER and BR services, including the Blue Pullmans of yesteryear. The actual coverage of Midland operations is pretty sketchy - I think David & Charles published a complete book just on this subject, and David Jenkinson has produced a number of articles on them as well. The part on the Caledonian ones is somewhere in between, with a few photos and OTTOMH a drawing or two, but it would appear that the Scottish Pullmans came in a wide variety, ranging from Maid of Morven via 12 and 8 wheelers to the very short Highland pair, so a degree of modeller's licence would not come amiss. I am not aware of any complete coverage of these vehicles, or even if there are photos of every one, although Modellers' Backtrack Vol 1 Issue 2 has a very good article on the early Pullmans (I cannot find my copy at the moment to see what it shows) and possibly the new book on 12 wheelers covers the later built ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks for all this guys, i'll have a look at some of the books mentioned and probably go for one of them. Although my primary goal is to find out more information about the LMS Pullmans, I am still interested in the entire UK Pullman story until the end of steam.

Rob
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 9 Dec 2008, 07:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It may be stretching memories to ask, but does either book have info as to the diagrammes used - ie line drawings or pictures - I ask as the one LMS painted pullman photo I have seems to have a different window count to the hornby coaches and be on 6 wheel bogies..
The current Hornby models (both the older unlit all-steel cars for the Queen of Scots, and the newer flush sided and matchboard cars with lighting) are all 'type K' cars built from the mid 1920's. These are effectively the final format of the UK Pullman Company designed cars.

The Caledonian vehicles are of an earlier design format, which is somewhat different, and here's the real rub; the company built vehicles on 'available' secondhand underframes. I remember reading a piece by Dr David Jenkinson during his years as an NRM officer, referring to the complexity this introduced: because the Pullman company had been anxious to obscure the 'recycled' nature of some its' 'all-new' cars! So there are subtle variations within notionally similar vehicles as the bodies were bespoke to suit the chassis.

The external appearance had a unity thanks to the styling, which is generically closest to the matchboard type K cars. But some were on turnbuckle underframes, others angle trussed, four and six wheel bogies were used, there were slight variations in overall length, and they were screwcoupled with bellows style corridor connectors to suit Caledonian operations. There is definitely a diagram applicable to a pair of the Caledonian cars in the 'Modeller's Backtrack' article, and photos of two or three of the cars at various times in their careers.
 

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QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 8 Dec 2008, 21:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...Pullman ran a number of cars on the Midland between 1874 and 1888 or so. They were the open balconied old fashioned type with cleretory roof, looking a bit like the coaches in old US movies. In the 1880's the Midland actually bought most of them as various agreements ran out, whilst some were transferred to the southern lines. By 1911 they were getting a bit worn out so the Pullman name was removed and they found use on football specials. Pullman also built 4 sleeping cars for the Midland.

The Highland had a couple of short sleeping cars but they were taken out of service in 1907.

The car shown in the Hamilton Ellis book is indeed one of the early ones, unmistakably American in appearance with the clerestory and open platform.

A recent good news story is that one of the Highland cars, "Balmoral" survived and has been rescued, albeit in a rather tatty state. It will be preserved, if not fully restored, with the help of a substantial grant from the Highland Railway Society.
 

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This has developed into a very interesting thread.

One of the early bodies (1870's) of one of the American Pulmans bought by the Midland Railway is conserved in The Kirtley Museum at The Midland Railway Center in Derbyshire. It is not being restored but it is under cover and the aim is preserve it as it is so that it stays original.

Four of the early coaches were converted for push pull trains paired with Midland and Great Northern 4-4-0T transfered to the Midland specially for the purpose. Two were based at Derby, One being used on the Derby to Wirksworth Service. The other two were based at St. Albans. They were used for about 4-5 years before the 4-4-0T were returned to the M&GNR. There are several pages of information about the coaches and the 4-4-0Ts in Midland Railway Locomotives: Vol One General Survey by Stephen Summerson, which is still available.

There is some information about the use of the ex Caledonian Pullman Coaches used on the Far North Line of the ex Highland Railway in BR days in The Great Days of Country Railways by David St John Thomas and Patrick Whitehouse.

In October 1951 a Pullman Car was added to the 6.40 am Inverness- Wick mail train to serve breakfast (three courses for 5s 0d [25p]). There is a photo of coach number 219 in what looks like LMS livery (former pullman car Queen Margaret, built by Metro-Cammell in 1927) being detached from the train at the Mound by ex Highland 0-4-4T 55053 in October 1950. The coach would then wait at The Mound to be attached to the south bound mail at 11.25 am.

There is another photo of the same service in Highland Railway Locomotives Book 2, RCTS, this time in October 1953, again with 55053 just about to attach Car Sc219M, again it would appear to be in LMS livery, to the rear of the south bound train at the Mound.

The last of the ex Caledonian Pullmans was withdrawn in the early 1960s.
 

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QUOTE (John H-T @ 9 Dec 2008, 21:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>..... The other two were based at St. Albans. They were used for about 4-5 years before the 4-4-0T were returned to the M&GNR.....

Being from the St Albans area I was interested to read the above. Looking at my copy of "St Albans to Bedford" in the Midland Main Line series published by the Middleton Press in 1993, photo 18 shows one of the coaches and one of the M&GN 4-4-0T engines standing in the bay platform of Harpenden station. Taken in 1906 the loco and coach formed the local train on the Harpenden-Hemel Hempsted branch off the Midland Main Line north of Harpenden.

Photo 23 shows one of the coaches standing in a siding at Hemel Hempsted around 1910, and Photo 25 shows distance view of a 4-4-0T and coach at Heath Park halt between Hemel and Boxmoor in 1905. (NB The Midland Railway always spelt Hempsted that way!) The book does not say when the service using these engines and coaches - known to the Midland as 'Auto cars' - ended.

The branch closed to passengers in 1947, to all freight except deliveries to and from the Lightweight Concrete Co. in 1964 and that stopped in 1979 when the branch was closed and disconnected in connection with the electrification of the St Pancras-Bedford route.

Regards,
John
 

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By happy coincidence Steve Banks has contributed some notes on this very subject in the current Model Rail. He concludes..."Peter Tatlow is working up the LMS side for a fresh article but I would advise modellers to get hold of the following: Pullman Cars on the LMS, Peter Tatlow, MRJ No 26; Pullman Services on the LMS by Niall Ferguson, BackTrack LMS Special, 1988; Caledonian Railway Pullman Carriages and their Successors, Niall Ferguson, BackTrack MArch 2005; Caledonian in LMS Days, Niall Ferguson and David Stirling, Pendragon 2007..."

Also the Caledonian Railway Association (web address crass!!! ) had an article on the Pullman in one of their journals.
 
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