Thanks Nick - valuable info.
Richard
Richard
The Midland Railway and Pullman Cars
I have been doing some research recently about the Midland Railway and have noted that they were the first to introduce Pullman Cars to the UK in 1874. However, I have not been able to come across much information as to what happened to these carriages. There does not seem to be a lot of information freely available on this topic. Did the policy of using Pullman cars on the Midland continue into LMS days? Was it abandoned due to the expansion of the Southerns Pullman Car range? What sort of Pullman cars did the midland operate?
I notice that Wrenn did some maroon "LMS Pullman" coaches so I assume the LMS did run them and they were maroon, but there seems to be a frustrating lack of information on this topic available!
Can any of the more knowledgeable folk shed some light on this topic?
Thanks,
Rob
I notice that Wrenn did some maroon "LMS Pullman" coaches so I assume the LMS did run them and they were maroon, but there seems to be a frustrating lack of information on this topic available!
Can any of the more knowledgeable folk shed some light on this topic?
Thanks,
Rob
21 - 38 of 38 Posts
QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 11 Dec 2008, 08:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>By happy coincidence Steve Banks has contributed some notes on this very subject in the current Model Rail. He concludes..."Peter Tatlow is working up the LMS side for a fresh article but I would advise modellers to get hold of the following: Pullman Cars on the LMS, Peter Tatlow, MRJ No 26; Pullman Services on the LMS by Niall Ferguson, BackTrack LMS Special, 1988; Caledonian Railway Pullman Carriages and their Successors, Niall Ferguson, BackTrack MArch 2005; Caledonian in LMS Days, Niall Ferguson and David Stirling, Pendragon 2007..."
Also the Caledonian Railway Association (web address crass!!! ) had an article on the Pullman in one of their journals.
Thanks Nick for drawing attension to the article in Model Rail. I had managed to miss it! I look forward to Peter Tatlow's Article in due course.
As far as the M&GNR 4-4-0Ts are concerned, they were returned to the M&GNR in 1912 having been borrowed for 6 months in 1906! They were sold to the War Department in May 1917 and two were sold on into industrial service later. However No. 10 (MR No. 5 and WD No. 51) became Longmoor No. 1 Kingsley and was retained for rerailing practice until scrapped in 1953!
Not a lot to do with Pulmans but does give some more of the History of the M&GNR 4-4-0Ts
Also the Caledonian Railway Association (web address crass!!! ) had an article on the Pullman in one of their journals.
Thanks Nick for drawing attension to the article in Model Rail. I had managed to miss it! I look forward to Peter Tatlow's Article in due course.
As far as the M&GNR 4-4-0Ts are concerned, they were returned to the M&GNR in 1912 having been borrowed for 6 months in 1906! They were sold to the War Department in May 1917 and two were sold on into industrial service later. However No. 10 (MR No. 5 and WD No. 51) became Longmoor No. 1 Kingsley and was retained for rerailing practice until scrapped in 1953!
Not a lot to do with Pulmans but does give some more of the History of the M&GNR 4-4-0Ts
Just noticed that Caley Coaches is proposing to produce an etched brass kit for
12 wheeled Pullman Composite Dining Car 'Fair Maid of Perth', 'Flora MacDonald' & 'Lass O'Gowrie'
Built by Cravens Ltd. in 1914 for use on the Caledonian Railway in conjunction with the 'Grampian' coaching stock. There's a drawing on the website.
He's just waiting for enough interest to be shown, so everyone who wants one should get in touch!
12 wheeled Pullman Composite Dining Car 'Fair Maid of Perth', 'Flora MacDonald' & 'Lass O'Gowrie'
Built by Cravens Ltd. in 1914 for use on the Caledonian Railway in conjunction with the 'Grampian' coaching stock. There's a drawing on the website.
He's just waiting for enough interest to be shown, so everyone who wants one should get in touch!
I managed to pick up a copy of Pullman Trains in Britain by R W Kidner (Oakwood Press) from The Ecclesbourne Valley Railway Association Shop at the Railway In Wirksworth, Derbyshire. They have a least one more copy (£8.95) so if anyone is interested I will post a contact telephone number.
There are two photos of the early MR Pullman Coaches in the Kidner Book.
It is a good general overview at least a starting point.
At the same time I picked up a copy of the Midland Railway Society's newly published book "The Midland Railway Steam Motor Carriages" by Stephen Summerson. It is in the same format as the same author's Midland Railway Locomotives. It was the relative lack of success of the two railmotors that lead to the pairing of old Pullman Coaches with the M&GNR 4-4-0Ts.
The railmotors and the Pullman/4-4-0T combination were used at some point on the Wirksworth Branch before the John son 0-4-4Ts took over.
One of the Railmotors (2234) was later converted into an Inspection Saloon and paired with MR Spinner 600 fitted with Vacuum controlled. 2234 survives at the NRM Shildon but in urgent need of restoration.
I know this is slightly off topic but in a way it links in with the later use of the MR Pullmans.
There are two photos of the early MR Pullman Coaches in the Kidner Book.
It is a good general overview at least a starting point.
At the same time I picked up a copy of the Midland Railway Society's newly published book "The Midland Railway Steam Motor Carriages" by Stephen Summerson. It is in the same format as the same author's Midland Railway Locomotives. It was the relative lack of success of the two railmotors that lead to the pairing of old Pullman Coaches with the M&GNR 4-4-0Ts.
The railmotors and the Pullman/4-4-0T combination were used at some point on the Wirksworth Branch before the John son 0-4-4Ts took over.
One of the Railmotors (2234) was later converted into an Inspection Saloon and paired with MR Spinner 600 fitted with Vacuum controlled. 2234 survives at the NRM Shildon but in urgent need of restoration.
I know this is slightly off topic but in a way it links in with the later use of the MR Pullmans.
QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 12 Dec 2008, 19:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Just noticed that Caley Coaches is proposing to produce an etched brass kit for
12 wheeled Pullman Composite Dining Car 'Fair Maid of Perth', 'Flora MacDonald' & 'Lass O'Gowrie'
Built by Cravens Ltd. in 1914 for use on the Caledonian Railway in conjunction with the 'Grampian' coaching stock. There's a drawing on the website.
He's just waiting for enough interest to be shown, so everyone who wants one should get in touch!
***Thanks for that Nick - I emailed and committed to a couple... He tells me the drawings are painful process so they will be a while.
Richard
12 wheeled Pullman Composite Dining Car 'Fair Maid of Perth', 'Flora MacDonald' & 'Lass O'Gowrie'
Built by Cravens Ltd. in 1914 for use on the Caledonian Railway in conjunction with the 'Grampian' coaching stock. There's a drawing on the website.
He's just waiting for enough interest to be shown, so everyone who wants one should get in touch!
***Thanks for that Nick - I emailed and committed to a couple... He tells me the drawings are painful process so they will be a while.
Richard
Thanks for all this information guys, it makes for great reading!
Rob
Rob
You will note that Hornby are planning to release 12 wheel Pullmans in 2009!
QUOTE (Saint Johnstoun @ 25 Dec 2008, 08:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You will note that Hornby are planning to release 12 wheel Pullmans in 2009!
Should give a lot of new scope for adding Pulmans to our layouts. As far as I can work out they are based on the last batch of 12 Wheelers built after the First World War up to 1921. One or two still exist.
Should give a lot of new scope for adding Pulmans to our layouts. As far as I can work out they are based on the last batch of 12 Wheelers built after the First World War up to 1921. One or two still exist.
I have now got a copy of "Pullman Profile No 1 : The 12 - wheel cars," by Anthony M Ford. Includes a chapter on the Caledonian 12 wheel coaches. It also covers all the 12 coaches to be released by Hornby.
Expensive, got mine for £26.51 inc p&p, but a mine of information with lots of photos and drawings.
Expensive, got mine for £26.51 inc p&p, but a mine of information with lots of photos and drawings.
I am somewhat late to this thread, so apologies for any duplications.
I believe the best book on the subject is "American Pullman Cars of the Midland Railway", by J. B. Radford. Ian Allen, 1984.
Photos (of a display photo at NRM) of the original 1874 imported Pullman, after conversion with MR 4 wheel bogies, available,
on My Website; or follow links to Photobucket or Flickr.
I believe the best book on the subject is "American Pullman Cars of the Midland Railway", by J. B. Radford. Ian Allen, 1984.
Photos (of a display photo at NRM) of the original 1874 imported Pullman, after conversion with MR 4 wheel bogies, available,
on My Website; or follow links to Photobucket or Flickr.
Since the above, I have started a Flickr Group "Clerestory Coaches (Railways)", which has nearly 1000 pictures of Clerestory Coaches across the world, and quite a few LMS/MR/LNWR ones including the MR American Imports. See http://www.flickr.com/groups/[email protected]/pool/ , and search for "American Pullman Import", or for group companies by initials.
A very interesting read/thread by way of my recent interest in Midland/Clerestories. I have just finished reading the Pullman section in the Midland Carriages book with the excellent history. The question now for me is how to model the American built Pullmans (clerestories)? ie would there be any US models that could be converted
Cheers
Cheers
US models would be H0 i.e. 1/85 while UK models are 00 (or related) 1/76 - which means that there would nearly certainly be a problem of size - also, US stock is built to a larger loading gauge than UK stock so there is a further size variation issue.
*** However the Midland cars were built to the UK loading gauge so would have been smaller than their US counterparts...
The loadiong gauge adjustments have some interesting results. When I wanted to build the LMS bogie coal wagons (Which were actually based on an EU prototype) I looked as a similar Roco HO model and was amazed to find that the bogie wheelbase and bogie spacings were correct for 4mm scale... as was the overall length and height.
If the project is important to you I'd buy one US HO Celrestory model and compare it with the available drawings for the Midland Pullman coaches - you just might be positively surprised how small the compromises will need to be compared to the effort in creating a whole new coach.
regards, Richard
The loadiong gauge adjustments have some interesting results. When I wanted to build the LMS bogie coal wagons (Which were actually based on an EU prototype) I looked as a similar Roco HO model and was amazed to find that the bogie wheelbase and bogie spacings were correct for 4mm scale... as was the overall length and height.
If the project is important to you I'd buy one US HO Celrestory model and compare it with the available drawings for the Midland Pullman coaches - you just might be positively surprised how small the compromises will need to be compared to the effort in creating a whole new coach.
regards, Richard
That's an interesting idea. I have seen the use of HO models of the DB side door coal hoppers to represent the BR iron ore hoppers
that were operated on the Tyne Dock to Consett operation, and they looked pretty well. Cannot remember the name of the exhibition
layout, many years ago now.
The one thought I would have with an HO coach, is that the wheels would be very small compared to any UK coach stock it ran with or
was adjacent to. Whether that mattered to you would have to be assessed by the experiment suggested by Richard; and substituting
larger diameter wheelsets would be possible, though this might need some clearance cut into the vehicle underside.
On the positive side the American HO market does offer some very good clerestory roofed vehicles, with constructions that are - shall we
say - 'challenging' to bring off well by DIY: coved sections of both the main roof end and the clerestory roof anyone? Looks spectacularly
elegant when perfectly executed, and a dog's breakfast when not...
that were operated on the Tyne Dock to Consett operation, and they looked pretty well. Cannot remember the name of the exhibition
layout, many years ago now.
The one thought I would have with an HO coach, is that the wheels would be very small compared to any UK coach stock it ran with or
was adjacent to. Whether that mattered to you would have to be assessed by the experiment suggested by Richard; and substituting
larger diameter wheelsets would be possible, though this might need some clearance cut into the vehicle underside.
On the positive side the American HO market does offer some very good clerestory roofed vehicles, with constructions that are - shall we
say - 'challenging' to bring off well by DIY: coved sections of both the main roof end and the clerestory roof anyone? Looks spectacularly
elegant when perfectly executed, and a dog's breakfast when not...
Thanks Richard & 34C. I will look into US coaches - any suggested brands eg Althearn? Meanwhile, I am progressing albeit slowly but happily on my Ratio Midland Clerestories and am tempted by the LNWR coaches but, having D Jenkinsons book on LNWR coaches, was wondering if there were any kits of the longer and later eliptical or cove roof coaches ie 57ft etc And - do the Ratio kits still come with Plastic wheels as their price now should include for those IMHO
21 - 38 of 38 Posts
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