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QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 1 Mar 2007, 07:27) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The stud contact track is not used for traction unfortunately. I beleive it is the return power rail. There is a sky thing under the loco which skims it so it creates drag rather than assists with traction.

Sorry, I meant the running rails !


I suppose you could cheat & use the Fleischmann Rack Rail
.
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 1 Mar 2007, 07:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I doubt that even 5000 current Hornby locos could pull one coach as without traction tyres the situation would be hopeless. Yes there are Hornby locos that can pull 15 model coaches. I wonder how many Hornby coaches a Marklin loco could pull?

200? 500?


Happy modelling
Gary

Just a suggestion Gary - how about a "Traction Power Challenge" for the next Warley & invite all the manufactures to take part ?
 

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QUOTE Just a suggestion Gary - how about a "Traction Power Challenge" for the next Warley & invite all the manufactures to take part ?

Heh! Heh! Heh! Heh! (those who watch Deal or no Deal will have to imagine evil banker cackling noises)

Can we include ex manufacturers whose factories have been demolished?

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 1 Mar 2007, 08:38) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Just a suggestion Gary - how about a "Traction Power Challenge" for the next Warley & invite all the manufactures to take part ?

Why Warley? (no disrespect)

Could we somehow arrange this locally and see what does what?

Regards

John

Who's just noticed he's now an engine driver!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
QUOTE (BRITHO @ 2 Mar 2007, 01:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Why Warley? (no disrespect)

Could we somehow arrange this locally and see what does what?

Regards

John

Who's just noticed he's now an engine driver!!
Congratulations John.

QUOTE I wonder what 200 locos fitted with sound decoders all starting up at the same time would sound like? Pretty horrible unless you could synchronise them.

As regards the Maerklin loco pulling Hornby Coaches, I can find out how many a Trix one will pull once I have started unpacking my trains. I will report back once I find out.
 

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QUOTE (Dennis David @ 2 Mar 2007, 09:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Just a question, does Hornby not use traction tires? Why not?
Seems unbeleivable but apparently some idiot told them it was good thing not to have them. Most of my Hornby locos have them so it must be a new thing. This would seriously reduce their pulling power and is a huge mistake in a lightweight loco.
 

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Traction tyres are never perfectly round and locos with them fitted can wobble. And it affects how many wheels can pick up power. And it give a model less of a prototype in miniture look.

The upside of course is better traction. Its pretty much down to the priorities.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 2 Mar 2007, 08:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Traction tyres are never perfectly round and locos with them fitted can wobble. And it affects how many wheels can pick up power. And it give a model less of a prototype in miniture look.

The upside of course is better traction. Its pretty much down to the priorities.

Happy modelling
Gary

Are you refering to "UK" or "European" models ?
 

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You tell me. Dennis refered to Hornby specifically and asked why they don't fit traction tyres. Are European HO traction tyres to a different standard and fitted any differently? Lima were a European company and their traction tyres induced wobble. If more care is taken with their fitting by European HO manufacturers then fair enough. Rubber is a natural material and the shape of the band only has to be out a fraction and you get a wobble. Ask yourself why car tyres need balancing. Same principle applies to traction tyres.

All I know is that manufacturers have gone to massive trouble and made big investment to ensure that axles and wheels are perfectly true and round and engineered then at the last minute they fit a traction tyre by hand! It does not seem logical.

It has to be said that OO wheels are much bigger than HO wheels with a resulting higher centre line for the axle so any wobble would be more obvious on OO models.

Not taking anything away from the feat of Marklin which is fantastic. Traction tyres are an entirely seperate issue with pros and cons.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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You don't generally have a problem with traction tyres factory fitted by the likes of Fleischmann, Roco, Trix/Marklin, Brawa & so on. Now Lima (the early stuff) is another story. Let's not go down the HO/OO quality issue again.

Not all traction tyres are rubber anyway !

I say yet again - haulage power is very, very important in "Euroland" - many layouts use helix's where you have small radius curves on 1 : 50 gradiants. Much as I, as well as a lot of people would prefer not to have traction tyres, if you want that sort of haulage performance then, even on a metal bodied & chassied locomotive driving on all wheels traction tyres are a necessary evil.

BTW - vehicle tyres (tires for Dennis !) do not need ballancing because they may not be 100% round (if they are not 100% no amount a ballancing will get them to run smoothly) they need to be ballaced because of inconsistancies of mass within the tyre/wheel construction (especially with alloy wheels).
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 2 Mar 2007, 09:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It has to be said that OO wheels are much bigger than HO wheels with a resulting higher centre line for the axle so any wobble would be more obvious on OO models.
Happy modelling
Gary

Taking as an example a 6' driving wheel

OO 6 x 4 = 24
HO 6 x 3.5 = 21

That's 3mm - not what I would call much bigger

Regards

John
 

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QUOTE haulage power is very, very important in "Euroland" - many layouts use helix's where you have small radius curves on 1 : 50 gradiants

Interesting comment. I would guess gradients would be more popular in the offshore islands if their locos were better as going up them!

I may be wrong but when I look at the drive wheels on a British mainline OO pacific they always seem a lot bigger than on the equivalent Euroland HO loco. Is it really only 3mm?

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
QUOTE Lima were a European company and their traction tyres induced wobble

Although Lima were a continental company they were rubbish. I have a couple of their items and they really suck. The outside on one isn't bad but the motors were shocking. When people are talking about Continental models in the context of quality they are generally reffering to Maerlkin, Fleischmann, Trix Brawa, Roco. Lima is not in the same book never mind on the same page as these guys.
 

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None of my locomotives wobble and they all have traction tires. Plus they are so thin I can't even see them when my locomotives are still let alone when they are moving. So what's more prototypical a locomotive with 3 passenger cars behind it because that's all it can haul or a locomotive with 10 passenger cars or 15+ freight cars?
 

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QUOTE (Dennis David @ 3 Mar 2007, 08:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>None of my locomotives wobble and they all have traction tires. Plus they are so thin I can't even see them when my locomotives are still let alone when they are moving. So what's more prototypical a locomotive with 3 passenger cars behind it because that's all it can haul or a locomotive with 10 passenger cars or 15+ freight cars?

Well put Dennis - I think over the weekend I may start a few tests using St.Laurent for the test bed - only problem is - I don't have any UK outline locomotives !
 

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dbclass50:

If you want some credible candidates for haulage tests without making too large a hole in your pocket, the Signal Box Rochester is offering some bachmann cl 40s for £50 and several cl 57s for £51-£53 , while Bachmann K3s can be had for £59. (With the 66 you run into the 21 pin socket issue unless you find an older release) Most of the obvious Hornby candidates are around £75 (Black 5 , 60, 31, 50, Arthur, Grange, 8F) with Pacifics still more expensive

However Hattons are offering some versions of the Hornby Q1 for £45-£48. They also seem to have a few older releases of the Bachmann 20 going cheap - 20 052 (which definitely has 8 pin NMRA socket) was advertised in March RM for £43. The Bachmann 24/25 is also highly regarded as a runner , though the DCC fitted ones are not so good , and Signal Box and Hattons seem to have them for around £40 . Admittedly all of these locos are on the smaller side [ And I've just spotted Hattons selling a Bachmann N inSR green for £48]

Heljan locos (33, 35, 47) can be had for around £60 from Hattons

Assuming numbers and livery are irrelevant to you, it should be possible to source 2 candidates for just over £100 and 3 for no more than £175

All the above are current generation models , with modern mechanisms -older 20th century models with pancake motors and rereleased Lima have been excluded (and DMUs are irrelevant to a haulage test)

I'd be interested to see some tests to establish some hard facts in this area. There's been a huge improvement in the mechanisms in OO RTR locos in the last 10 years (something frequently ignored in reviews). There used to be a substantial gap in performance between Lima and Hornby OO and US and Continental HO locos and I geniunely do not know how far the gap has closed

I'm sceptical of the idea that decent haulage can only be achieved by fitting traction tyres , since US HO has been a traction-tyre-free zone for several decades , yet US HO locos are certainly expected to haul long trains as a matter of course , and their running has been used as a stick to beat OO for many years

But the only way to sort this out is some trials to get some hard facts
 

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Traction test.

Remember that Andy York devised a test platform to test pulling power. It was noted that there wasn't much point in testing it on a gradient as the gradient only vectored in the weight of the loco to the equation.

A flat test set-up, dead straight, where the loco can pull a metered force would be ideal.

Putting weight in wagons is tricky as the friction of the wagons always comes into play. Coaches is a common method, but as we all know there are good coaches with extremely smooth running and there are horrid ones that bind their bogies on every bend.

Remember those Newton meter things from school - sort of thing you use to weight fish caught on the rod...?

Where is there a supply of those things that we could rig up a system to accurately test the pulling power of a HO/00/N scale loco?
 

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>sort of thing you use to weight fish caught on the rod...?
The same thought has been drifting in and out of my mind over the last couple of months. I even did an Internet search and found that there are many different spring balances available for fishermen to weigh the ones that didn't get away. I guess that a 2kg unit would probably be sufficient?

David
 

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Yes, any test based on hauling vehicles is more of a test of the properties of the vehicles than of the locomotive's power.

It's been my intention for ages to rig up a simple quadrant to link a loco to a cheap electronic balance - one of those things that I might never get round to.

On the subject of rubber and its alleged variance due to being 'a natural material' - other than specifically latex items, there is almost no such thing as natural rubber these days and it would be a rare loco indeed that used anything other than totally man-made plastic as a traction tyre. If you could find a real rubber tyre, I'd warrant it would be well perished and virtually useless. Even brand new tyres made from natural rubber wouldn't last more than a few minutes running and are almost totally defenceless against rotting on exposure to oil. Even if never run, natural rubber perishes in a very short time frame simply due to oxidisation.

Even the best quality synthetic plastic tyres can't be guaranteed against wear and tear or even to resist some lubricants and it's for those reasons and others that I don't much like them personally, though it has to accepted they can do wonders for traction!
 
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