[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Gwent rail @ 29 Mar 2007, 21:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes, Britho I do, but before I'll go to the shop of the exhibitor in question, I'll source it online. I'm dammned if he's having any of my money

Typical "box shifter" - "forest in a box" takes up a lot of room for a small profit, it's also not a big seller at a show, it's also a bit "dull" compared to a new locomotive. The space that the "forest" takes up in the van, trailor or on the stand, you can get 6 or 8 items of rolling stock = much more profit - what would you do if you were a "box shifter" ? Having said that there is no excuse for bad attitude - a simple polite enquiry - a simple polite reply - easypeasy.

We, on the other hand take virtually everything to shows except spare parts. We are always polite & try to spend the time to talk to customers, give out advice & so on. Still, we have a lot of fun at shows & are gradually building up trade, so we must be doing something right !

 

[alastairq]

Whilst not quite on topic....I support my local model train shop whenever I physically can.

Over the years I must have spent well into 4 figures there.

There IS another 'local' shop, in the other direction, I patronise if possible too.

Although both are pretty much in the 'same' business, chatting to both I detect a distinct difference in 'attitude'.

One talks in a 'positive' manner,is obviously an honest enthusiast, with honest opinions, and is willing to impart those views......the shop 'appears' to do well.

The other will tend to bleat the 'hard done by' line....about how they cannot even buy wholesale at the retail prices of some of the big firms.

If I enquire as to why they haven't got a website to sell over, it's a case of 'its too much hassle' etc....??

I understand fully why they have to sell their goods at far higher prices than the mail order companies.....however, that doesn't mean I must be 'blackmailed' into buying......the former shop would likely get the bulk of MY business.

I use tinternet..I find it convenient....I don't have to drive around, find parking, take up (my valuable) time, etc.

20 years ago, when I modelled US stuff, I often bought direct from the US...taking advantage of the (favourable) exchange rate, and their credit card rules...I got excellent service, bar none,
and got what I wanted to boot.

To me the internet is the small trader's boone.....and here I'm particularly referring to those traders who are specialists, rather than small retailers.
As far as I can see, and I am the world's most uncommercially thinking person....any small trader, of whatever persuasion, MUST embrace the internet for that 'wider' audience, to survive.

 

[7113]

QUOTE (alastairq @ 30 Mar 2007, 12:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Whilst not quite on topic....I support my local model train shop whenever I physically can....
There IS another 'local' shop, in the other direction, I patronise if possible too............

One talks in a 'positive' manner,is obviously an honest enthusiast, with honest opinions, and is willing to impart those views......the shop 'appears' to do well.

The other will tend to bleat the 'hard done by' line....about how they cannot even buy wholesale at the retail prices of some of the big firms.

If I enquire as to why they haven't got a website to sell over, it's a case of 'its too much hassle' etc....??

I use tinternet..I find it convenient....I don't have to drive around, find parking, take up (my valuable) time, etc.

To me the internet is the small trader's boone.....and here I'm particularly referring to those traders who are specialists, rather than small retailers.

As far as I can see, and I am the world's most uncommercially thinking person....any small trader, of whatever persuasion, MUST embrace the internet for that 'wider' audience, to survive.

Some very good points in there Alastair - I didn't read it as off topic but a useful and thought provoking view on the subject I raised.

I think you are partially right about the internet, but at the end of the day you just can't beat good old fashioned customer service.

Regards

John

 

[homeofoo]

This problem has been going on for years.When I started in the trade in the 50's,London had many model shops,most of them model railway specialists.All were gone before the net came around.I worked at Hambling's,we did not have the buying power to compete on prices but we did have a specialist knowledge and a wide range of bits and pieces that the discounters would not touch.This together with our full selection of books and magazine and a world wide postal service kept us in profit till a 300% rent rise made it impossible for us to continue.Hambling's bowed out not owing anyone any money at all,unlike most of the others who went under some owing many thousands of pounds to suppliers.The internet is just another version of mail order,if you cannot compete on price,than compete on service and/or offering the more specialist items that the bigger boys will not touch.All retailers should go on the net and find there own little place in the market,anything to increase sales.The small retailers biggest problem is the sheer cost of running a business,rent,council rates,heating,lighting etc,and they must have some profit after all that for them and their families to live on.So if you can buy from a specialist local model shop,then do so,if not find one on the net that can supply you with all you needs both big and small,most will discount prices if they know you could be a regular customer.As they say use them or lose them.
Regards.
John

 

[7113]

Some good points raised there John, I think you have hit the nail on the head with your observation about making a living. It's hard enough to break even these days without actually making a profit.

Regards

John

 

[Gary]

Chatting to a stockist I questioned why he bothered selling locomotives if the margins were non existant as it seemed the height of stupidity to sell something for which a return was virtually zero. The answer was interesting.

10 years ago 4 coaches were the equivalent cost of 1 loco and margins on locomotives and coaches were a healthy 20% or more.

So you made as much selling 4 coaches as you did selling 1 loco and customers bought 4 coaches to 1 loco in that sales ratio.

Now with Hornby upping the price of coaches and locos for reasons of enhanced quality and detailing, from a trader point of view 3 coaches are now the equivalent of 1 loco and the sales ratio is currently 3 coaches to 1 loco.

Problem is wholesale price of locos has risen well in excess of the retail price that customers are prepared to pay and margins are now virtually nil on locomotives as a result.

And this combined with the fact that fewer coaches are being sold as a result of higher prices mean that, whilst maintaining coach margins, there is 25% less of it.

Hornby have failed fundementally to educate their customers that they should be paying much higher prices for the quality now being offfered and this stockist puts the blame for this firmly with Hornby!

The wholesale arrangements and products offered 10 years ago were far more profitable for the stockist then than they are now! And the stockist would much rather we go back to how things were 10 years ago!

And more volume was sold as the products were bought both by both collectors and as presents for the kids. The issue now is the price of stuff is so high that it is no longer bought as a present/toy for the kids on a regular basis. Dad is not going to pay £85 for a loco for his son. He is very much looking forward to stocking the RailRoad items as he believes this will be an excellent product range from a stockists point of view as it gives him something which he can start selling to the kids again.

And the only reason he offers locomotives is that they are the lossleader that draws the audience and customers in. He would prefer not to sell any and would prefer his customers to buy other bits and pieces!

The one positive though is that he claims that Hornby are now offering products that are far more attractive for the collector and collectors collect/spend all the year around so his sales curve has less of a Xmas spike than it used to. He would still rather not be selling locomotives though as if that was all he sold he would be commitiing finacial hara kiri!

There you go. Something reported straight from the frontline!

The fact appears to be that whatever is claimed, it cannot be denied that todays model railway stockists are offering remarkable value!

Happy modelling
Gary

PS I did not mention the impact of video games on the toy market during my chat and how this may have affected sales led by the kids however a changing marketplace is a factor that should not be overlooked and Hornby have probably made the product changes that they have for the changing market.

 

[double00]

I noted one dealer who seems to attend both small exhibitions and swap meets with a mixture of new boxed items and used models. I noted offered, where several model petrol pumps of yester years, these pumps have been displayed on several occasions - each time refuses to reduce his asking price by a few pence, rather no doubt hope one day to have a buyer on his terms, even in having to wait perhaps months. At swap meets that I have visited, I have never seen any swapping or accepting offers to buy at a reduced price.

 

[Gwent rail]

QUOTE (double00 @ 29 Apr 2007, 23:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>At swap meets that I have visited, I have never seen any swapping or accepting offers to buy at a reduced price.

Are we saying here that NOBODY at "swap meets" is prepaired to deal/ discount/ swop

If so we are entering the realm of "retail sales events". A far cry from what swop meets used to mean!

 

[goedel]

I think that this isn't a issue unrelated to general changes in society. Small non-chain shops are disappearing / have disappeared from our cloned highstreets as supermarkets and economy-of-scale take over. The model railway supermarkets are the internet stores which thrive on thin margins and can offer a wider range from a bulk warehouse.

Small retailers have to adapt to survive and fill specialist niches which is what they were doing at the last exhibition I visited - selling kits, detailing parts and transfers, or importing American, Japanese or European equipment that is hard to get here. I must admit that as a young member of the hobby (early twenties) that I've bought very little, in fact nothing at all from actual model shops, everything has been done over the internet - afterall with the advent of forums such as this people can share knowledge once only obtained off helpful traders or at exhibitions. Now we no longer expect anything but just the model from our shop - if it doesn't work we send it back for immediate relacement, and if we want advice we automatically turn to the internet forums. Who amongst us doesn't research a model on the internet (often extensively) before buying? Is there any point going to a model shop for an objective opinion? Hardly, they obviously will want to sell it to us!

I do model European N scale so I'm not atypical for the UK but between eBay (UK, DE, FR), OnTracks and European internet shops I've built up a collection of 20 locomotives and lots of coaches/wagons etc. and never paid the UK RRP for anything, let alone a premium above it! However small traders do have an important role to play by specialising to provide small production runs of bits and pieces for the post-loco-purchase market - afterall most model shops are really just middle men, they buy from X and sell to Y with comission - good ridance I say, hardly a sophisticated way of making money and easy to circumvent with globalisation. Society is teaching us to expect higher and higher standards and more and more as time progresses - we are relatively affluent and will pay readily for quality - small traders are learning to exploit this.

There will always be a market for the small people, they just need to adapt with it as it changes - this is a completely natural thing! I don't think there's anything to worry about...

Besides if you sell something on eBay doesn't that make you the ultimate small trader anyway? There are thousands of us!

Goedel