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Chief mouser
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I decided to start this topic following on from Dougs excellent Nurnburg reports, mainly because the comments and observations from some contributors are, in my opinion, astounding.

Do some of our members who attend exhibitions etc. ever look beyond those traders selling Hornby and Bachmann, quite honestly I sincerely doubt it.

I have been railway modelling or "playing trains" as some of my friends call it for more than 40 years, and have finally got round to building "the big one".

Like many others I started off with the Triang clockwork with the circle of track and have'nt looked back since, I have now moved into modelling British HO, partly for the challenge of the hunt for stock, partly because it's a different ball game , and partly because so many more accesories are available on the HO scene.

I find it hard to believe that models I have been experimenting with for some years, eg Faller Car System, the Sexy figures etc. are only now being hailed as something wonderful here in the UK.

It also seems to me that certain of our members seem to think along the lines of - in the beginning was the word and the word was Hornby, at which point the story ends and the great god of model railways decided that that there was no world outside Great Britain.

I enjoy railways both real and model, and at the last count had well over a thousand books on the subject, which is why I tend to post quite a bit of historical data here. But I do try and see the whole picture not just the British insular one.

Given the choice of travelling by train in Mainland Europe or the Uk it's a no contest. The continental services seem to run on time and be clean, Unlike some of the TOC's here.

I am not saying that any one of us is right or wrong, just that we are all individuals who should perhaps broaden our horizons and just occasionally look to the other side of the water.

Regards

John
 

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John I can certainly understand you going for HO. My layout is/will be half UK in OO and half US in HO, linked for continuous running, so I'm doing my bit. There's an incredible amount of stuff available in HO. I wish I could run [and afford!] Fleischmann steamers and some views of Swiss rail have me yearning to do that too!
There's plenty of blinkers being worn in the US I can tell you. It's much easier to get advice about non UK rail on here than it is to get advice on non US rail over there. And the broader range of forum categories on this site is one of the reasons I frequent it. Yes, I think there's a lot of interesting stuff on here away from the mainstream, and I hope all members check it out often.
Regards,
Mike
 

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Also I think people don't look too far afield because so much UK stock is available.
If I wanted to model Queensland Rail - and I DO want to - I would have one loco manufacturer to choose from. They make excellent loco shells which then need to be built up and motorised, but they are out of my price range.
By my reckoning US and UK modellers are spoilt. Only when the options are narrowed down will people need to look elsewhere and consider the possibilities.
Cheers,
Mike
 

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I would agree with pretty much all you've said there John. I can understand people wanting to model their locality, there nothing wrong with that. In fact it's perfectly natural. My issues are more with openly racist views which are sometimes are expressed and people trying to pretend that the product served up to the UK market is the best in the world.

Unfortunately being an island nation many of us (British) can be inward looking and lack awareness of anything foreign. This can also be exacerbated by intellectually challenged people reading garbage like the Sun and the Mail which would lead the reader to believe that we still ruled the world.

It would be good if we could rid the world of narrow mindedness but in a hobby which tends to be followed by conservative people I think would be fighting a losing battle.
 

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DT
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I started out modelling my local railway network. I even bought a Jouef loco or two before the company went bust. Brand new these locos ran badly. When I discovered eBay, I bough some more. Second hand, they ran even worse.

I came across some Hornby locos going cheaply - see the first 3 reviewed locos on this site - and they ran so well that I have now 'switched' to a British layout.

I still like to run my French, continental, American and South African locos - they just don't get out as often as the Hornby and Bachmann locos.

I think that it's human nature to run what you have locally. And if they run well, then all the better.
 

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QUOTE Do some of our members who attend exhibitions etc. ever look beyond those traders selling Hornby and Bachmann, quite honestly I sincerely doubt it.

I would turn the question around completely!

Do the Germans for example have any interest in British outline and look beyond Marklin and Fleischmann?


It is totally wrong to specifically target those with British outline interests who reside in Britain in this way.

This is an English board with a large British membership so it is quite frankly only to be expected that Hornby and Bachmann is where the interest lies in the main. There has been recent discussion about a new Italian company VI Trains who is about to produce a new model for the British market so it is wrong to claim that Brits are only interested in Hornby and Bachmann. We Brits will talk about Marklin and Fleischmann only when they deliver what we want!

Do German forums in German discuss Hornby and Bachmann?


What they will do is discuss the German outline product that Hornby and Bachmann produce through their European subsiduries.

Doug did a fantastic job with his Nurnberg review. Pat Hammond featured the work as a news story at Model Rail Express magazine (which incidently never features any correspondence on European outline). Out of 30000 hits at MREmag over 2 days how many actually clicked through to the news story?

And it terms of the product of Hornby and Bachmann it is absolutely right for the British market!


Now there are continentals living in the UK so it is natural that they will have an interest in the railways of their home country and Marklin and Fleischmann will be selling product to these expats living in the UK hence it it worthwhile having UK distributers.

It is not a crime to be narrow minded when it comes to model railways!

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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Hey guys I am only new but Hornby Rules OK!!!
Rule Brittannia even though its made in China and who cares where you get the models from...if you enjoy them so what???seems to me that everyone seems to get caught up on detail rather than enjoyment!!
 

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>This is an English board
The About box states that "Model Rail Forum is an English language Model Railway Portal", I think you forgot the "language" bit and by doing that put yourself into the "little englander" camp and prove why this thread was started in the first place.

David
 

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I can totally believe that the european manufacturers have a higher quality product than we get offered here in the UK. However, that doesn't mean I want to model a German or Swiss railway just because the models of their railways are the best quality on the market. I'm very happy with the output from the two main "00" manufacturers and choose their products not thinking they're the best that is available but because they produce the items I want. I want, in the main, steam from the "golden age of steam" through to the steam/diesel transition era. Not because that's when I grew up, I'm far to young to have seen steam working our railways, but because to me they're the best looking prototypes to have models of. Now to me that's right, to somebody else it'll be wrong and that's fine, it'd be a very boring world if we all liked the same things.
 

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To repeat it is not a crime for members to show an interest exclusively in UK outline from wherever it is sourced and in the manufacturers who supply the product.

Are we to start being critical of those who limit their area of interest to GWR and even narrower fields?

To be honest the message contained in this thread is sending out very confusing signals

There is an international section already for "Model railway topics specific to other countries & regions. Continental, US, Australian, African etc"

How many of those who have these interests actually visit that section or have posted there?


Doug should ammend the heading of the OO section so that it caters for British OO (and HO?) outline interests only.

At the moment there seem to be 2 sections devoted to HO continental and this is confusing.

Happy modelling
Gary

PS the other thing I am slightly confused about is that has anybody ever had any issue with those who have an interest in the wider railway world?

Why then take issue with of those who have a local interest only?

What actually is the root thinking behind this topic?


Could you quote some of the "astounding" comments made consequential to Doug's report?
 

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Chief mouser
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
QUOTE (Gary @ 10 Feb 2007, 11:28) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would turn the question around completely!......
.......It is not a crime to be narrow minded when it comes to model railways!

I don't recall ever mentoining it being a crime, and once again Gary you are proving the point i was trying to make. I was, in the main, referring to the fields of buildings and accessories, not rolling stock.When I attend exhibitions I like to take time to look at the smaller traders who frequently have the sort of iyems I want. One example is Preiser figures, which I buy unpainted at about £15.00 for 120 figures, and I was using them on my last OO Hornby layout in the late 90's.

Regards

John
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 10 Feb 2007, 13:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Could you quote some of the "astounding" comments made consequential to Doug's report?

Perhaps you should try reading the first part of my initial post again - I said I found the comments astounding IN MY OPINION

Regards

John
 

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QUOTE I was, in the main, referring to the fields of buildings and accessories, not rolling stock

Fair enough. It was a missunderstanding.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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>There is an international section already for "Model railway topics specific to other countries & regions. Continental, US, Australian, African etc"
>How many of those who have these interests actually visit that section or have posted there? question.gif
>Doug should ammend the heading of the OO section so that it caters for British OO (and HO?) outline interests only.

I for one read everything that is posted. I didn't realise I needed a passport to read those sections in which I don't have a particular interest.

David
 

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QUOTE (dwb @ 10 Feb 2007, 17:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I didn't realise I needed a passport to read those sections in which I don't have a particular interest.

David

Yes you do, but it has to be a biometric one even though the warranty will only last two years


Now back to important issues, what was he thinking? 7' 1/4"
 

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Perhaps a good place to start is Doug's posting, with which quite a few people will identify:

QUOTE I started out modelling my local railway network.

The vast majority of people do - and the great majority of people will continue to do so.

QUOTE This is an English board with a large British membership (Gary)

QUOTE The About box states that "Model Rail Forum is an English language Model Railway Portal", I think you forgot the "language" bit and by doing that put yourself into the "little englander" camp and prove why this thread was started in the first place. (dwb)

The main countries where English is the/a native language are the US (290 million) , the UK (60 million) Canada (25 million) Australia (just under 20 million) SA (not sure the number of English speakers but some millions), Eire and NZ (both 3+ million)

MRF has few North American posters, and there seems to be very little discussion about North American prototype modelling on MRF. The N.American market is the largest in the world for model railways. The fact that Neil's suggestion in another thread that US HO was totally unreliable went without comment or challenge except from me , tends to prove that nobody on here models the US scene. Had those kind of comments been posted on pretty well any other active English language forum on the east side of the Atlantic (RMWeb, DEMU forum, uk.rec.model.rail , MREMag, relevant Yahoo groups etc etc), there would have been a deluge of posts from people with US modelling interests pointing out that he was a long way wide of the mark.

Take North America out of the English speaking world, and to put it bluntly, the British Isles account for the overwhelming majority of what remains

You would therefore expect a very large predominance of British modellers on MRF and the overwhelming interest to be in British prototype. If this isn't a North American forum, it would be natural and normal for MRF to be essentially a British forum

This isn't the case. MRF has a vastly greater proportion of non-British prototype material than any other English language forum on the east side of the Atlantic - and almost none of it is US outline, even though that is the biggest overseas interest in UK railway modelling . There's no Aussie outline either. I would almost go so far as to say that Continental HO is the largest single interest on MRF - most of the people posting in this thread work in HO, and have no real US interests

Frankly dwb's posting can be taken as suggesting that British modellers with British interests aren't especially welcome round here , and that in his opinion they aren't really what MRF is about. Yet logically MRF would seem like an obvious home for such people

Indeed this whole "British modellers' attitude problem" thread can be said to make British modellers of British prototype feel pretty unwelcome round these parts . (I personally take considerable exception to comments like "openly racist" and "little englander", especially when I suspect I am one of the intended targets)

And it is quite noticeable that there are relatively few regular MRF posters who are British modellers of British prototype . The UK club-and-exhibition scene people who form the overwhelming mahjority of members of other boards just aren't here. If they turned up, I think they'd be made very unwelcome by some folk here

Then there is the "H" word. Some of those whose interests lie outside the UK seem to be assuming British prototype = Hornby = British prototype, and anyone who attempts to defend British outline modelling is liable to be dismissed as a bagman for Margate

This is a totally distorted view of British modelling

I don't even have anything from Hornby on my current shunting plank , and Bachmann scores one chassis and two 16T minerals. Most of the stock is kits

There are 3 commercial gauges in British outline - O,OO , and N. Hornby don't even do O or N

I am not claiming that current British models are the finest yet seen on the planet, just that they are pretty good. I'd accept the average standard of Continental HO is still a little higher than the average standard of British OO. The average standard of US HO is a bit higher too. However Continental HO seems to cost nearly twice as much as OO, and US HO seems to be about half the price of OO (Maybe this is wh6y British modellers tend to go US not Continental)

But I am throughly sick of the endless attacks on British modelling and modellers as substandard, the continued protrayal in various quarters (many outside this board) of British RTR as the global pits and the suggestion that anyone who choses to model British prototype has something wrong with him

And I am tired of the general claim that all HO is orders of magintude better than all OO

2 Continental manufacturers have taken a serious sustained interest in OO - Lima and Heljan. The British models they produced are frankly no better than the models being produced by Hornby and Bachmann at the same time.

I think the rivet counters criticism of the Heljan 47, 52, and 33 is way over the top and anyone needing a model of those classes should get one. But they are on a par with Bachmann and Hornby, and not significantly better, and Heljan drop clangers on detail along with the rest of them. The Bachmann 66 is a better model than the Heljan 47, and its cheaper.

Please explain why I should believe typical Marklin , Fliesschmann and Roco HO locos are significantly better than the Heljan 47 or 33 , let alone the Bachmann 66 or 9F or the Hornby 60

I was particularly struck by Doug's posting as it's a familiar story - except usually it's a modeller explaining why he switched from OO to overseas HO. If Continental HO is so much better - across the board - , especially mechanically , what do we say about this poor running Jouef ?? (And I hope Hornby sort it out before rerelease).

If certain HO brands are better than current OO , but others are not , then we need to be specific , range by range . And generalised assertions of the superiority of HO to British 4mm are best left aside

On the more general point, one magazine , Modern Railway Modelling, was launched specifically on the premise that younger modellers would refuse to buy magazines which contained a predominance of articles on British steam but would welcome a magazine which mixed articles on British diesels with articles on US and Continental diesels.

I have to say the dominant feeling seems to be that the overseas material is a drag on the magazine (Model Rail seem to do it better with their international supplement). But having got in quite serious trouble with one person associated with MRM for having had the temerity to suggest on another forum that the overseas coverage in MRM should have a broader range, that Continental Europe is not far and there should be more European material and not 95% US stuff - I'm not taking any charges of "little englander"

Model Railroader is widely available in WH Smiths. I may not bne interested in the prototypes, but the apprach and philosophy is often interesting

Continental and US building kits are used quite widely by British D+E modellers. I'm afraid to my eye they do reflect their origins and the archetecture is a bit too angular, but they are a known resource

From what I can see British modellers are far more open to modelling overseas prototype than modellers from most other countries (try finding non-French content on the Loco-Revue forum) . But the dominant element is US, not Continental. My own club has an active US layout group - and an unwanted Roco DCC trainset lying in a corner
 

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>Frankly dwb's posting can be taken as suggesting that British modellers with British interests aren't especially welcome round here , and that in his opinion they aren't really what MRF is about. Yet logically MRF would seem like an obvious home for such people

At least you included "can be taken as" as otherwise I might take offense at your post. The meaning you have taken is incorrect. Unlike Gary, who appears to be claiming the Forum as "English subjects for English people and fans of English products only", I wanted to point out that the Forum "About" statement is not so narrow, and long may it remain so.

David
 

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QUOTE Unlike Gary, who appears to be claiming the Forum as "English subjects for English people and fans of English products only",

Have I ever claimed that?

What I have intimated is that if forum members are only interested in British outline and Hornby, Bachmann and others who produce British outline (and that includes those overseas companies that do) then this narrow vision should not be condemned and those who enjoy the fruits of British outline manufacturers should not be condemned. And I do agree with a lot of what Ravenser says.

The topic title asks this question QUOTE Are some modellers narrow minded?

The answer is yes and does it matter?

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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DT
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I've said this before, but I'll repeat it for a couple of our newer members


I'm a South African that was brought up in the UK, now living in France running British, French, American and even a few South African locos and trains on my track. If there was ever a case for schizophrenic railway modelling, then this is it.

My dilemma is how to get them some time on the tracks. I end up getting frustrated sometimes, but then I come in here online and yak about it - whatever it may be.

Or policy from the start is that if any aspect of the model railway hobby merit its own section or area, we'll do just that as we have done in the past with narrow gauge and garden modelling areas. And we'll try and let it flourish. The important thing is that this may be an aspect of the modelling that we already know, but it may be something foreign that we have not come across.

I realise that some folk may wish this to be more British and some others may wish it to be more International. We have to try and accommodate as many modellers as possible without specifically excluding any sector. Not easy sometimes.
 

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>Have I ever claimed that?
That's what it looks like to me.

>Are some modellers narrow minded? .... The answer is yes and does it matter?
only when they try shoving it down my throat. They are entitled to their opinion even if it is wrong.


David
 
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