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Recently there has been a lot of locomotive classes that were never preserved being revived such as the B17, Patriot, Clan, Grange, Saint and many others.

I was wondering if given the choice what loco or loco's would I want to be revived whether it be steam, diesel or electric

My first choice would be Caledonian Railway No.903 Cardean as at one point it was Britains most powerful express loco and in my opinion was the pinnacle of Scottish loco design before the grouping.
No.903 Cardean

My next would be one of the Great Western Atlantics either No.102 La France or No.40 North Star as its the missing link between the City of Truro and and the 4-6-0 Star Class being the first GWR four cylindered loco's.
No.40 North Star
No.102 La France

My last choice would be a semi-streamlined GWR Castle class as the GWR is the only company that doesn't have a streamlined locomotive in preservation, although its not that good looking in full streamlined form it looks quite good in semi-streamlined form with just the bullit nose, wedge fronted cab, full length wheel arches with streamlined funnel, dome and firebox.
No.5005 Manorbier Castle semi-streamlined

would love to hear your suggestions and reasons for them.
 

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With an eye to suitability to actually run with a decent load on the UK network, the only new classes really worth building are those that are powerful and fast enough to still perform out on the main lines. Top of my list a P2 2-8-2; the only eight coupled express passenger class to ever run in the UK. With the current experience of building the A1, this pretty closely related machine seems a natural if expensive choice. A real benefit is that it can take the same boiler design as the A1, and could share a tender/extended range tender if in the same ownership as the A1.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 19 Aug 2008, 00:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'd go with the Cardean too.

A preserved Garratt would have been good.
Very nice choice, certainly tempted by the idea of a Garratt. Which one would you choose, LNER, LMS or one of the exported Garratts
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
QUOTE (34C @ 19 Aug 2008, 09:31) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>With an eye to suitability to actually run with a decent load on the UK network, the only new classes really worth building are those that are powerful and fast enough to still perform out on the main lines. Top of my list a P2 2-8-2; the only eight coupled express passenger class to ever run in the UK. With the current experience of building the A1, this pretty closely related machine seems a natural if expensive choice. A real benefit is that it can take the same boiler design as the A1, and could share a tender/extended range tender if in the same ownership as the A1.
Would love to see a P2 rebuilt since its a scaled up A1 but wouldn't it have problems with the current loading guages that restrict locos like the 9F that have large wheel bases from running on the main line? If not I would certainly like to see it built but which version. The original version seen on Cock o' the North or the later version with the A4 style front end.
 

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QUOTE (steamrailuk @ 19 Aug 2008, 11:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Would love to see a P2 rebuilt since its a scaled up A1 but wouldn't it have problems with the current loading guages that restrict locos like the 9F that have large wheel bases from running on the main line? If not I would certainly like to see it built but which version. The original version seen on Cock o' the North or the later version with the A4 style front end.
The developed version with double Kylchap ejector and Bugatti nose; and further developed as 'next in class built' as was done with the A1 build. It was proposed to link the leading carrying and coupled wheel using the 'Bissel truck' arrangement to ease the track and flange wear problem of the longer coupled wheelbase and that would seem a sensible move. The other enticing prospect would be to go back to poppet valves, but this time using the Caprotti gear as perfected on DoG.
 

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QUOTE (34C @ 19 Aug 2008, 12:00) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The developed version with double Kylchap ejector and Bugatti nose; and further developed as 'next in class built' as was done with the A1 build. It was proposed to link the leading carrying and coupled wheel using the 'Bissel truck' arrangement to ease the track and flange wear problem of the longer coupled wheelbase and that would seem a sensible move. The other enticing prospect would be to go back to poppet valves, but this time using the Caprotti gear as perfected on DoG.

That sounds like a great idea, it also makes for a refreshing change for somebody else to prefer the rebuilt version. I always had the impression that the original was the peoples favourite and thought I was the only person who thought that the rebuilt was a better looking loco.

I also have a soft spot for Bantam Cock, it was a very nicely proportioned locomotive but with there only rver being two of them in the first place this one is not a realistic proposition


Andii
 

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QUOTE (5696Arethusa @ 19 Aug 2008, 20:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That sounds like a great idea, it also makes for a refreshing change for somebody else to prefer the rebuilt version. I always had the impression that the original was the peoples favourite and thought I was the only person who thought that the rebuilt was a better looking loco.

I also have a soft spot for Bantam Cock, it was a very nicely proportioned locomotive but with there only rver being two of them in the first place this one is not a realistic proposition


Andii

***I think a Patriot is already underway but have no idea as to its progress.

I think Tornado is a stunning achievement but I think another LNER standard would be one too many..... and before LNER fans yell at me, I say that for the same reason I don't think another Stanier is needed ....while I love em to death, there are enough taper boiler LMS loco's out there!

.... Perhaps a pre-rebuild original Scot?

It takes a lot of emotion stirred in the public to prize the money out of them for such an expensive project... so flair and imagination are needed, as is an image that'd stir a wide spectrum of emotions: I'd rather like to see a Johnson Single or perhaps one of the smaller loco's with a bit of style - a Midland 4-4-0, a GN tender loco of similar size or perhaps an LNWR Prince of Wales....

Or lets go Diesel, and rebuild LMS 10000 - that is a REAL "era changing" locomotive and may be a project that would appeal to a very wide contributing audience, as well as being probably easier than a new steam loco..... and theres no shortage of engineering expertise available for it!

Richard
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 19 Aug 2008, 13:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>.. It takes a lot of emotion stirred in the public to prize the money out of them for such an expensive project... so flair and imagination are needed, as is an image that'd stir a wide spectrum of emotions ..
That's part of the reason why I think the P2 with A4 style streamlined front is a good one to go for. The A4 shape still appears in current railway advertising in the UK, because the wedge shaped nose is where its' at for fast rail travel today. If it looks right, it is right.

The other factors are that it is big, giving it the power and performance potential mentioned; and the uniqueness of the concept for the UK. We have characteristic examples of pretty much everything else significant in the UK steam traction story, both preserved and operational, save this one eight coupled passenger class, and the Garratts. (Not quite true, you have to go to Mulhouse to see the Crampton and Outrance 4-4-0)

The UK Garratts would be an operational nightmare: too slow for present mainline operation, much too big for a preservation operation. You have to go to Oz or Africa to see one, where they can really be appreciated. Are any of these monsters still given a run out in Australia? Footplated on a Zim railways garratt up the Vic falls incline, 1 in 39; that was a very good day.
 

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QUOTE (34C @ 19 Aug 2008, 22:15) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That's part of the reason why I think the P2 with A4 style streamlined front is a good one to go for. The A4 shape still appears in current railway advertising in the UK, because the wedge shaped nose is where its' at for fast rail travel today. If it looks right, it is right.

The other factors are that it is big, giving it the power and performance potential mentioned; and the uniqueness of the concept for the UK. We have characteristic examples of pretty much everything else significant in the UK steam traction story, both preserved and operational, save this one eight coupled passenger class, and the Garratts. (Not quite true, you have to go to Mulhouse to see the Crampton and Outrance 4-4-0)

The UK Garratts would be an operational nightmare: too slow for present mainline operation, much too big for a preservation operation. You have to go to Oz or Africa to see one, where they can really be appreciated. Are any of these monsters still given a run out in Australia? Footplated on a Zim railways garratt up the Vic falls incline, 1 in 39; that was a very good day.

***But rightly or wrongly, the already well and truly overexposed A4 shape is what would be seen and many of the great unwashed wouldn't even notice the difference...... I'd still like to see LMS 10000 before any other large steam locos..... Its certainly a historically more significant loco.

Richard
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 19 Aug 2008, 16:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***But rightly or wrongly, the already well and truly overexposed A4 shape is what would be seen and many of the great unwashed wouldn't even notice the difference...... I'd still like to see LMS 10000 before any other large steam locos..... Its certainly a historically more significant loco.

Richard
LMS 10000 would be a great addition to the preserved locos fleet and its certainly true that all the parts and expertise to build it are easily available. I was also thinking of a loco such as that either the GT3 if it was possible or recreate the Blue Pullman DMU as a design classic in my opinion
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 19 Aug 2008, 16:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>..I'd still like to see LMS 10000 before any other large steam locos..... Its certainly a historically more significant loco.
Assuming that there was popular support there could be some hot debate on the how. A low cost route might be to take an English Electric class 37 frame, which must be very similar in leading dimensions and has much the same machinery layout, rebody to 10000, install the correct motor, generator and ancilliaries, fabricate all new bogies. That's a midpoint between take a 37, fit it with 10000 cabs, paint it up, and bingo! a running machine externally something like 10000; and build it from the ground up, all new and as close as possible to the 10000 that went into service in 1947.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
QUOTE (34C @ 19 Aug 2008, 18:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Assuming that there was popular support there could be some hot debate on the how. A low cost route might be to take an English Electric class 37 frame, which must be very similar in leading dimensions and has much the same machinery layout, rebody to 10000, install the correct motor, generator and ancilliaries, fabricate all new bogies. That's a midpoint between take a 37, fit it with 10000 cabs, paint it up, and bingo! a running machine externally something like 10000; and build it from the ground up, all new and as close as possible to the 10000 that went into service in 1947.
that would be the most likely course of action as i've seen on many steam loco rebuilds, they cannibalise other locos with similar parts and modify them to how they want them
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 19 Aug 2008, 14:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I don't think another Stanier is needed ....while I love em to death, there are enough taper boiler LMS loco's out there!
Richard

Sorry Rich, but there is still ONE gap, the Stanier 2 cylinder 2-6-4T, aesthetically the best 2-6-4T design. Now to be controversial, didn't the P2 prove to be a bit of a track smasher, trying to straighten out the curves??one of the reasons for it's conversion to A2. As for the Garratts, apart from the problems already highlighted, they suffered from very poor bearings, the reason for their slow speed limits.
Paul M.
 

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QUOTE didn't the P2 prove to be a bit of a track smasher, trying to straighten out the curves??one of the reasons for it's conversion to A2

There's no mention of "track smashing" in "Gresley and Stanier - A centenary tribute" by Bellwood and Jenkinson but they do write:-

"There were insufficient passenger trains loaded to over 500 tons on the Aberdeen route to utilise fully the six locomotives, with the result that many workings were 'over engined'. The eight-couple axleboxes did not take kindly to the numerous curves on the route, and with Pacific train loads the P2s were expensive to both operate and maintain".

In the context of this thread, I think it is worth adding the authors' conclusion on the P2 class:-

"Whatever the merits or shortcomings of Cock o' the North, it probably represented Gresley's greatest single step forward and was certainly ahead of its time. It is significant that when, twenty years later, the last express passenger steam locomotive was built for British Railways, it had three cylinders fitted with poppet valves".

David
 

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QUOTE (dwb @ 20 Aug 2008, 21:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There's no mention of "track smashing" in "Gresley and Stanier - A centenary tribute" by Bellwood and Jenkinson but they do write:-

"There were insufficient passenger trains loaded to over 500 tons on the Aberdeen route to utilise fully the six locomotives, with the result that many workings were 'over engined'. The eight-couple axleboxes did not take kindly to the numerous curves on the route, and with Pacific train loads the P2s were expensive to both operate and maintain".

David

In a few cases the track won, cracking a couple of frames.
PM
 

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QUOTE In a few cases the track won, cracking a couple of frames.

Ouch!

David
 

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I would be very happy to see a reincarnated P2, especially the Cock o' the North in its original condition - always one of my favourite locomotives. (A Highland Railway Skye Bogie would be my personal favourite, but it might not have such a broad appeal).

There is good information on the P2 class and its problems on Richard Marsden's excellent LNER Encyclopaedia website (http://www.lner.info/locos/P/p2.shtml). The "track smasher" epithet seems a bit surprising for an engine that spent its working life as a 2-8-2 on the Aberdeen route. However, it's often stated that it was the troublesome leading pony truck that put damaging stresses on the locomotive, and Newton's inconvenient 3rd Law means that the track would have taken the same beating. The Caprotti valve gear seems to have been insufficiently developed, but now this is beginning to sound like the story of 71000, the Duke of Gloucester. It would be a terrific opportunity to recreate a great engine and realise its potential while the expertise that restored the Duke and built Tornado is still available.
 

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I'd like to see an LMS Turbomotive or perhaps a Bulleid Leader if a strong enough section of track could be found. :)
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 19 Aug 2008, 14:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Or lets go Diesel, and rebuild LMS 10000 - that is a REAL "era changing" locomotive and may be a project that would appeal to a very wide contributing audience, as well as being probably easier than a new steam loco..... and theres no shortage of engineering expertise available for it!

Now that sounds good!!

Regards
 
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