[oitoitoi]

Hi guys, I'm building a layout that's main section is a prototypical (well almost...it's a bit more curved than in real life because I don't have that kind of space!) model of Newcastle Central Station as it stands today. However my layout will be set in the 1930's (the station back then had the diamond junction which I challenge anyone to model!).

I'm aware that LNER ran a number of trains through Newcastle via the east coast mainline and that there were some local suburban trains that ran out of the east end of the station to Tynemouth but I'm struggling to find any information on what else ran through the station. For example what trains would have come from the west direction (from Carlisle) and other than LNER what else would come via the mainline? Also other than the A3's and then A4's what engines would have been present?

Basically I'm looking for a definitive source of information on the subject, or even better a timetable with information on specific engines and what trains they pulled, any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated!

 

[poliss]

The Newcastle & Carlisle Railway by G.Whittle ISBN:9780715378557 may be of help to you. The Lit and Phil in Newcastle may also be of service.

I reckon the chappie who built these crossings could make the ones by the Castle Keep no trouble.
http://www.bronx-terminal.com/?p=5

 

[dwb]

QUOTE the station back then had the diamond junction

I received a photo of it recently on one of those "blank inside" greetings cards; so now it's considered to be a work of art?

As regards trains into Newcastle, I know that post war there were regular Liverpool - Newcastle trains. These were usually hauled by rebuilt Royal Scots as far as Leeds City or possiblly double headed by Black 5's / Jubilees at which point an A3 would take over, presumably from Neville Hill. Quite what would have happened prewar, I don't know but it might give you some ideas? Maybe even double headed C or D Class of some kind?

David

 

[60134]

The multiple diamond crossing will be a challenge!

60134

 

[Saint Johnstoun]

There were lots of services, both LMS and LNER that ran to Newcastle.

All the ECML expresses such as the Flying Scotsman, Coronation, etc.

Local electric services to the coast and South Shields.

Local services to Sunderland and further down the coast.

Services to Carlisle.

Stopping services both north and south to Edinburgh or York.

South West to North East Services from Bournemouth, Bristol, and Cardiff.

Steam Railcar to Ponteland

Services to Scotland via Reedmouth

etc.

There was an awful lot going on there in the 1930s.

 

[oitoitoi]

QUOTE (Saint Johnstoun @ 6 Jan 2009, 18:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There were lots of services, both LMS and LNER that ran to Newcastle.

All the ECML expresses such as the Flying Scotsman, Coronation, etc.

Local electric services to the coast and South Shields.

Local services to Sunderland and further down the coast.

Services to Carlisle.

Stopping services both north and south to Edinburgh or York.

South West to North East Services from Bournemouth, Bristol, and Cardiff.

Steam Railcar to Ponteland

Services to Scotland via Reedmouth

etc.

There was an awful lot going on there in the 1930s.

Thanks! That's just the sort of thing I was looking for! Any chance you could give me some more details, e.g. what company ran which service (I know about the LNER expresses), what locos they would have used for those services and if possible what carriages would be amazing. I didn't know LMS had a presence at Newcastle in the 1930's. What's a Steam Railcar?

All I really know so far is:

LNER ran Flying Scotsman via ECML, pulled by A3's and then A4's. The Silver Jubilee was pulled by A4's, as were the Coronations, I know about their different liveries.
I've got some info bookmarked about the Local Electric Train services although I don't know if any models are available.

That bloke who makes points is pretty amazing, indeed given time he probably could tackle the diamond junction, someone should send him a photo!

 

[Heygate]

There's a book I have called "Roads and Rails of Tyne and Wear, 1900-1980. It's written by J Joyce and published by Ian Allan in 1985, you may be able to get hold of a copy through your library. It gives quite a lot of information that I think you would find useful, with details of branch line, main line and suburban trains around Newcastle during the period you are interested in.

If you go to www.LNER.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.shtml this will tell you about the railcars (and other locos) used in the NE.

Tony T

 

[34C]

QUOTE (oitoitoi @ 7 Jan 2009, 00:17) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>.. what company ran which service (I know about the LNER expresses), what locos they would have used for those services and if possible what carriages ..
In the 1930's Newcastle on Tyne was in LNER territory, they ran all the services. You simply would not see locos from other companies, as the pregrouping company absorbed into the LNER which covered this area, the NER, 'owned' the entire territory.

What you would see. Representatives of most of the LNER Gresley loco classes. Available RTR in OO: A1, A3, A4, B17, J39, K3, V1, V2, V3, (and the D49 was available form Hornby, a dated model, still turns up s/h) quite a useful selection. However, the majority of the locos would be ex-NER types from which there is precisely one RTR model available, the J72. There are no RTR models available for any of the GNR, GER, GCR and NBR types which worked through from other parts of the LNER system. So what you have is heavy and medium passenger power, two heavy mixed traffic designs, a medium goods, a passenger tank loco, and the standard light shunter. What is seriously absent is any representation of the large fleet of 0-6-0 and 0-8-0 NER goods types which dominated the large scale coal traffic in that region; it's kit building time if you require an authentic leavening of the many NER loco types working (worth noting here that these NER goods types survived right to the end of BR steam operations in the area, outlasting the later Gresley locos and were the last surviving pre-grouping standard gauge designs working in the UK).

Worse story in coaches. There are precisely five (somewhat inaccurate) models of Gresley type coach designs in varnished teak available RTR from Hornby. Here you are very much dependent on kits, the simplest being the old 'Kirk' plastic moulded Gresley vehicles. The problem with any kit representing these coaches is reproducing the glorious but difficult varnished teak finish. There are or have been a few, expensive, kits to represent the many NER coaches that would still be in service. Other types that worked through are Pullman cars on a couple of prestige services (Hornby flush sided vehicles are good approximations) and through coaches worked principally off the LMS on East-West services, and much smaller numbers of GWR and SR through coaches.

Wagons present a mixed picture. There are suitable RTR wagons available, the RCH minerals, LNER standard brake vans, and various grouping era wgons from the Big Four companies. There are kits from Parkside and others to represent the NER area speciality: much of the coal traffic was in large wooden high sided 4W hopper wagons of very distinctive design; other common grouping era wagon types can also be found in kit form to add the essential variety to freight traffic.

Hope that is of some assistance. More here http://www.lner.info/

 

[oitoitoi]

Thanks for the info guys, very useful indeed.

34C that is the exact information I was looking for and that website is fantastic. Could you tell me which of those Loco's was which (e.g. what was the medium goods loco)? I've also noticed that a lot of the LNER 0-6-0 locos come in both green and black liveries, which would is more accurate/appropriate?

Also is anyone aware of a RTR O2 2-8-0 loco available? It seems that it was the heavy goods loco of choice for LNER and would be perfect for my layout (preferably with 30 or so coal wagons behind it!). Looks like I'll be kit building most of the rolling stock. I don't mind some of the older hornby gresley coaches, I'll definitely be kit building the coronation coaches though.

I'm a bit confused as to what passenger locos would have been in use at Newcastle. I understand there were A1's, then A3's and eventually A4's running express routes via the ECML but what other routes were there? For example what routes would there have been approaching from the south west and which locos would have pulled them?

 

[dwb]

QUOTE Also is anyone aware of a RTR O2 2-8-0 loco available?

That's pretty much top of the wishlist of all Eastern / North Eastern steam modellers for an RTR model, meaning there isn't one

There aren't too many 0-6-0s tank or tender either.

David

 

[Saint Johnstoun]

View attachment 1028
Your passenger Locos in the 1930s would be mainly ex North Eastern and some North British, Great Northern, and LNER types. A lot of variety but remember there weren't a lot of Pacifics around in that neck of the woods until later.

If you can access a set of the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER this will answer most of your questions.

 

[34C]

QUOTE (oitoitoi @ 10 Jan 2009, 17:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>.. Could you tell me which of those Loco's was which (e.g. what was the medium goods loco)? I've also noticed that a lot of the LNER 0-6-0 locos come in both green and black liveries, which would is more accurate/appropriate?
..
LNER loco classifications
A's were pacifics, heavy express power
B's were 4-6-0's, secondary express and mixed traffic
C's were Atlantics, the previous generation of express power
D's were 4-4-0's, secondary express
J's were 0-6-0's,, the maids of all work of the railway, and principal goods type
K's were 2-6-0's, mixed traffic
and so on, there is a listing of all types in the loco section of the encyclopedia.

A key factor to remember is that the LNER was highly regionalised throughout its' existence. Although the O2 was the group standard 2-8-0, there were only 66, and they worked mainly South of Doncaster. In the Newcastle area the inherited NER built 0-8-0 types dominated heavy freight, Q5, Q6, Q7, in total more than twice as many as the O2's. There were also O4's, of which the LNER possessed over 300, many bought economically as war surplus. Likewise the NER constructed 0-6-0's of classes J21 to J27 far outnumbered the LNER standard J39 which is the 'medium goods' I referred to earlier. This is what makes modelling the LNER so challenging: if you want it to be right, then building what is not available RTR is the only way.

If you see an LNER 0-6-0 in green it must be a tank engine: a very few were so painted as station pilots for major locations like Newcastle. But the overwhelming majority were black (and often dirty too).
QUOTE .. I'm a bit confused as to what passenger locos would have been in use at Newcastle. I understand there were A1's, then A3's and eventually A4's running express routes via the ECML but what other routes were there? For example what routes would there have been approaching from the south west and which locos would have pulled them?..
There were routes radiating from Newcastle, but the only major one other than the ECML main line is the route West to Carlisle. Services to the South West went South on the ECML, leaving this route typically at York to go West. York was one of the principal railway hubs. As for the locos on these workings, many would be North Eastern types. This railway had a a large selection of Atlantics C5, C6, C7, 4-4-0s D17 - D23 and 4-6-0s B13 - B16, and these along with the Gresley passenger locos would usually have powered these services.
QUOTE .. Also is anyone aware of a RTR O2 2-8-0 loco available? ..
Would be great to have, but very unlikely to appear. The O4 2-8-0 which outnumbered them near 5 to 1 on the LNER is a much requested type. Fingers crossed!

 

[oitoitoi]

Thanks 34C, you're a veritable mine of information! Certainly doesn't look like the locos I need will be available any time soon, particularly an O2 or O4, do you think an O6 in wartime black with NE livery would do for now as a heavy goods loco (£73.50 inc. P&P new on e-bay)? I'm not really into kit building locos, don't have the patience though I'm willing to have a go with coaches and wagons.

Doesn't look like B, C or D class locos are going to be available any time soon either... I managed to find a couple of Hornby D49's on e-bay but I'm guessing they're pretty old and I'm running a DCC layout so it might not be worth it. Also found a LNER 'Norwich City' Apple Green B17 but I'm a bit sceptical about it as it's a tender drive model.

Looks like I'll be getting a J39 and J72 for now as shunters. I suppose of all the people who'll see the layout the only person who'll know of the irregularities will be me...

When you refer to mixed traffic, would there have been much around the north east area? What kind of configuration would they have been? Would they have been seen at the station?

Also, this is pretty basic question, what would have happened to trains entering bay platforms at Newcastle? Would they simply have reversed out or would another loco reversed in and taken the train back? In short how were they turned around?

 

[MEGair]

Looks like you have a good list to go by. I model LNER mid 1930's too and have 2x A1, A3, 2x A4, B1, B2, B12, B17, C1, D11, J39, J52, J70, 2x J72, J83, J94, K3, N2, 06 (LMS 8F), V2, V3, Sentinel Rail Car, and GNR Stirling Single. The A1, A3, A4's are all latest Hornby product and run well. Bachmann produce Thompson B1, though these were built in 1940's. This was cheap on ebay OZ, runs well for its age. B2 and D11 are white metal kits needing a repaint in LNER. B17 is a Hornby, I added extra pickup on one side of the Loco and what a difference it makes. Would prefer super detail loco drive one though (Liverpool). C1 is DJH kit. The J39, J72, K3, V2 and V3 are Bachmann. The GNR single is a Bachmann US therefore HO model called emily. I have taken the face off and will repaint it. Bought when the US dollar was nearly one to one with Ozzie $. The Hornby 06 (8f) is a good buy as it it the only LNER 280 RTR available, again these were in LNER during WW2. The Sentinel Rail Car is scratch built, but a kit one is available from Nu-cast kits. The N2 062T was most unlikely to be in the area as these were generally used for suburban work around London. The Only 3 other RTR Locos are the Hornby D49 which was produced in the 80's, same for the Lima J50 060T. Bachmann produced a WD "austerity" 280 Class 07 in 2004. So there is a real need of Locos other than tanks and pacifics. Bachmann have at least produced 2 workhorses, J39 and K3. Bachmann are producing a Peppercorn A2 462 this year, but this is a 1947 loco. Hornby have the B12 & J52 in a DCC set, but a friend bought this and is having trouble with the B12. The 04 280 is one of the most requested Locos on Model rail wish lists over the last few years. There were 4 that came to New South Wales in Australia and I think are preserved to variou degrees. What an opportunity to market a Loco.
The last Loco I would like is the exGCR D10 440 Walter Burgh Gair, only available in kit form.
So there is a run down of RTR & other Locos.

I also am basing my layout on Ponteland (Pont-eel-and) in Newcastle area. Though the line to Ponteland has long gone, I am basing it on the fact that in the 1860's the owners wanted to run an alternative line to Edinburgh and will run the Silver Jubilee and Pullman sets through it. The LNER also parked the Royal Train on the sidings at Ponteland with a V3 in charge.

G5's and G6's also run on that line with either 1 or 2 Push-Pull Coach trains. As stated J21-27 also ran on this line to a colleiry and general freight.

You might try finding the book 'Newcastle Railways' (View from the Past) ISBN: 0711026165 by Groundwater, Ken 1998.

Hornby and possibly Bachmann may produce a LNER 440 in 2010, though Bachmann have yet to announce there 2009 new products. One can only hope. Maybe 2010 may be the year for LNER?
I have a friend who has built/is building a model of Newcastle station with the castle, not yet finished. I have several photos which I could send to you, or try to post on this Forum.
hope this helps?

 

[oitoitoi]

MEGair thanks for the info, those photos would be great to see! I actually live fairly close to ponteland and am actually going there to dinner at a friend's this Saturday! You certainly have a very impressive collection of locos, do you run DCC with all of those? I imagine the older models need quite a bit of work to convert, not to mention an expensive decoder. Not many people seem to model LNER, it's a real shame as it seems to have had so much character. I'll have a look for those books people have mentioned, I'm guessing the local libraries should be well stocked on local books!

 

[oitoitoi]

Forgot to ask, what are your thoughts on the D49? I found a couple available on ebay that my be handy for medium passenger services? Do you know if it could be converted for DCC operation? It's Hornby R859 so it's an older model. There's another that's R123.

 

[MEGair]

Firstly I'm dc-analogue still, but have been investigating DCC. A lot of work when you have 40+ locos to do. I may do one line as DCC so I can switch between the two. We have just done this at the local Model Rly Club here in Bendigo. You might like to check out this A4 on Youtube.

If this doesn't work search for "Hornby A4" select the Quicksilver Loco. If it can do all this on DCC, I am converted. This guy, Martin is in Perth Australia.

Secondly, I didn't say why I am modelling Ponteland either. My late father was born in Ponteland ward in 1905 and would have travelled on the line. He did tell me that he had been on the Flying Scotsman in the 20's before immigrating to OZ in 1930. The family had a farm in Prestwick I believe, where the airport now stands. I have and am trying to discover more about the family, etc. Need to contact Ponteland parish for records, survey maps,etc. Time is issue. There's my reason for LNER 1930's and Ponteland.

Thirdly, The D49. I am not sure in regards to DCC. I am just starting out. The Hornby D49 was produced between 1981 to 1998. It is tender drive with one pickup on the loco and one on the tender, which is the same as the early B17. As I said, I added a extra pickup to my B17 because it was an early one. This improved the running at slower speeds greatly. With regard to the B17, I would go for the later ones, these are numbered R2000+, R2185 Norwich City is unfortunately the only LNER one, all others are BR. I would be patient and wait for Hornby or Bachmann to introduce a loco drive model. I will buy on if they did, "Liverpool". This model has twin pickups on loco and more correct chassis.

The numbers for the D49 are: R378 2753 Cheshire 1981-82, R859 359 The Fitzwilliam 87-89 and R123 222 The Berkeley 94-95 all in LNER green. This is from Ramseys British Model Trains Catalogue (3rd). the 5th edition is out now. Again I think they would need the extra pickup on Loco for better running.

Also, other than the D10, I wouldn't say no to A4 in green, a D49, a G5, a J15, an 04, a P2 early style, a Q6, a W1 Hush-Hush in grey, a Y1/3 and even a U1 280+082 Garrat. Now thats a good selection of Loco's. But my priority is the D10 No 5433 Walter Burgh Gair in lined Black. Same surname. Wow. Will try work out how to put Photos on site.