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Just another modeller
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
***OK

When I did the A3 decoder, someone commented that one of the things they'd love to see (hear) is wheelslip for the big steam loco's.

Well.... I've done it.

I've been re-vamping my Coronation (Duchess) soundfile masters and was motivated by a couple of video's with Duchess of Hamilton slipping and dancing everywhere when moving off (some careless work at the controls actually - whoever was at the controls nearly primed it well and truly so the whistle was squeaking & spewing water too!)

So... I have integrated a short wheelslip sequence into the decoder as follows.

Added in this case to Fn 4.

Loco set up with momentum at 20 in forward, 15 in reverse (this gives good control over drifting once the loco has reached line speed.

Start loco sound.

Put the loco into gear - as you would for any start with a load on, at say speed step 1~4 depending on controller and amount of momentum.

before moving, the loco does the usual steam hiss as the cylinders are cleared of condensation. Just as this happens you press F4

So...

As the initial hiss dies and power is applied, theres a flurry of wheelslip (actually taken from another Duchess, not Hamilton)

a moment after the slip stops, the first chuff happens as the loco moves off.

In other words, a short wheelslip as was common with big loco's starting reasonable tonnages.... nothing extreme.

The question is, should I do it for ALL pacifics and larger loco's - I'd like to know if its important to you as its a lot of setu-up owrk.

Please post and advise me!

regards

Richard

PS: Other things that I like about this new sound file: Two distinctively Duchess whistles, both very "stanier" but with the airy sort of breathlessness that duchess fitted whistles seem to have.

One is set up to replicate the sound when its not all that close to you and running at speed (a little doppler and echo in it), the other just like it should sound close by... sharper but still with the "breathless" undertone of a Stanier whistle.

REJ
 

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Hi

Thats really sounds great Richard and I will be down Sathurday for a demo. Did it take you much time to do it? Knowing you at least 20 hours just to get that part right!

I think Richard the way controllers are going if you were to add it to the programme on a full time basis it would only be another plus. If on the other hand people dont like it, dont press f4. Thats the beauty of dcc.

I want it!

Would I be asking too much to also get the wheels to spin also???????

Excellent job see you Sathurday.

m
 

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Just another modeller
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
QUOTE (Martin71 @ 23 Oct 2008, 19:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Would I be asking too much to also get the wheels to spin also???????

***I really thought about that - The vision of the soft-ish metal used in most lco's now twisting itself in a knot killed the thought pretty quick :).

It could be done but it'd be a real effort - it needs a way to lighten the load and allow turning of the wheels, a decoder that will allow a selectively pulsed motor power or a camelbacked speed curve (none now will) and a touch of insanity to try it. Tempting as a one off but I think I'll pass :).

Richard
 

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I'd be interested Richard, especially on LNER pacifics. I have vivid recollections of Peter Hanford's recordings of wheel slip on these and to be able to indulge in it occasionally would be rather fun. I have found that you can get Hornby's current pacific chassis to slip quite easily on DC if you give it a rapid twist on the controller knob but as you say it probably isn't good for the delicate moving parts such as the valve gear which is apt to be a bit slack.

David
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 24 Oct 2008, 13:16) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'd like it too Richard. It would be an opton that many would be interested in.

***Thanks Neil, David, Martin... I expected you all to answer as you appreciate sound, but am a little disappointed in the general silence on the subject so far..... perhaps some more will answer over the weekend!

OK, second question for all to answer: There are a limited number of super convenient "direct access functions" (ie one button push) which are F0 to F9 (others usually need to access as second screen)

This "wheelslip" function needs to be in the direct access area.... as do many other sounds AND of course any lighting control.

Its easy to fill the first 10 (0~9) and in some cases, something has to go... so which sounds can you most do without.

extra loco whistles
guards whistle
station announcement
injectors
coal shovelling (synchronised with flickering firebox)
added direct access to "brake squeal (to simulate flange squeal manually)
pumps
manual piston blowdown (its also in startup file usually)

Kind thoughts.

Richard
 

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Hi Richard

I think that anything that adds something special to the sound is a good idea
the wheel slip is a good idea

I think the station announcements could be moved off the list - Put a speaker run from a recorder in your station building to do that instead

Regards Zmil
 

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I'm inclined to agree with zmil - the station nnouncement, nice as it is, does not add to the locomotive driving experience.

If the momentum is set back to a very low value you could induce real wheelslip but then the actual driving experience suffers a bit. It would be nice if there was a way to toggle the momentum between two settings, one high and one low. I know the NCE controller can override momentum settings on the fly but it is not really quick enough to suit what I had in mind.

Any thoughts on that?
 

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Paul Hamilton aka &quot;Lancashire Fusilier&quot;
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I don't yet appreciate or understand it all yet but am quite sure I want it though. Don't know whether a humble Fowler 4F had the oomph to have had a little wheel spin though....
 

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Just another modeller
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
QUOTE (SRman @ 24 Oct 2008, 15:50) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm inclined to agree with zmil - the station nnouncement, nice as it is, does not add to the locomotive driving experience.

If the momentum is set back to a very low value you could induce real wheelslip but then the actual driving experience suffers a bit. It would be nice if there was a way to toggle the momentum between two settings, one high and one low. I know the NCE controller can override momentum settings on the fly but it is not really quick enough to suit what I had in mind.

Any thoughts on that?

**Actually I think the station announcement in the decoder works really well and its one that gets a lot of unsolicited comment from owners, so to be honest its not one I'd drop.

re the function button use of momentum Jeff, it can already be done with a LokPilot or LokSound sound decoder.

Momentum can be changed with a function button (momentum on/off is one part of the "shunt speed" settings in every loksound, and can be done independently if the decoder is remapped properly).

However it will never be sudden as sudden changes are actively buffered because they damage locos.

There is NO WAY you will ever do the actual physical wheelslip reliably or realistically on a "planned basis" with current DCCcontrollers, decoders and locos. It needs a hard "power on / power off" that is purposely designed OUT of them!

Anyway... its not wise for loco life... especially for Zmil - with EU's common use of traction tyres.... its a good way to remove them automatically :).

Paul: A 4f could have wheel slip - its inevitable when drag exceeds friction for a moment... a little less energetic slip than a pacific though :)

Richard
 

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QUOTE (dwb @ 23 Oct 2008, 17:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'd be interested Richard, especially on LNER pacifics. I have vivid recollections of Peter Handford's recordings of wheel slip on these and to be able to indulge in it occasionally would be rather fun.

QUOTE (SRman @ 24 Oct 2008, 07:50) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If the momentum is set back to a very low value you could induce real wheelslip but then the actual driving experience suffers a bit. It would be nice if there was a way to toggle the momentum between two settings, one high and one low.

I am there already! I sample from the wonderful recordings made by Peter Handford and replay these on a regular stereo set up. Using Lenz Gold and Silver (and compatible Zimo decoders) you can toggle momentum on/off on F4. So the procedure is: momentum off on loco decoder, start recording, two 'big step up' button pushes to speed step 16 to simulate the pacific in wheel slip and back to zero with two more 'big step down' button pushes. Then apply momentum and set to whatever speed step you want the loco to reach, and watch it pull slowly away. I use very large settings in CVs' 3 and 4 by most people's standards, 60 or 70 for a loco on a heavy express.

You either need a decently heavy train on, to stop the loco lurching forward too much; or something else I am presently experimenting with: recycling old tender drives and earlier decoders in combination as 'brakes'. By using the tender drive with an older Lenz decoder that doesn't have toggleable momentum, with matching acceleration curves to the loco and running as a permanent consist, this 'stands fast' during the wheel slip event, holding the loco back. All I want now is a way of simulating the explosion of steam, smoke and vapour that would envelop the loco during these events.
 

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Hi

I think quite the opposite and disagree with you SRman when it comes to the station announcement. When the loco pulls into the station its just another level of realism added. How can it take from the experience? I cannot understand that? So what sound to put in its place then. Their is plenty of space on a loksound decoder. As I said before if you don't like it don't press the function button. Problem solved.

I think both of Richards projects are great.

To answer your question Richard about why not many people have not answered and I mean this in no disrespect to the forum runners, and this applies to all forums, "it is getting a bit flat". I find myself posting less and just having a quick scan. This is just my opinion only and I don't want to take from Richards excellent job of putting together a sound file.

m
 

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Richard, I have sent the Black Five and the ESU decoder so if you can do a reasonable version of a wheel slip I'd appreciate it in both.

Thanks
Charles Emerson
Queensland
Australia

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 23 Oct 2008, 21:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***OK

When I did the A3 decoder, someone commented that one of the things they'd love to see (hear) is wheelslip for the big steam loco's.

Well.... I've done it.

I've been re-vamping my Coronation (Duchess) soundfile masters and was motivated by a couple of video's with Duchess of Hamilton slipping and dancing everywhere when moving off (some careless work at the controls actually - whoever was at the controls nearly primed it well and truly so the whistle was squeaking & spewing water too!)

So... I have integrated a short wheelslip sequence into the decoder as follows.

Added in this case to Fn 4.

Loco set up with momentum at 20 in forward, 15 in reverse (this gives good control over drifting once the loco has reached line speed.

Start loco sound.

Put the loco into gear - as you would for any start with a load on, at say speed step 1~4 depending on controller and amount of momentum.

before moving, the loco does the usual steam hiss as the cylinders are cleared of condensation. Just as this happens you press F4

So...

As the initial hiss dies and power is applied, theres a flurry of wheelslip (actually taken from another Duchess, not Hamilton)

a moment after the slip stops, the first chuff happens as the loco moves off.

In other words, a short wheelslip as was common with big loco's starting reasonable tonnages.... nothing extreme.

The question is, should I do it for ALL pacifics and larger loco's - I'd like to know if its important to you as its a lot of setu-up owrk.

Please post and advise me!

regards

Richard

PS: Other things that I like about this new sound file: Two distinctively Duchess whistles, both very "stanier" but with the airy sort of breathlessness that duchess fitted whistles seem to have.

One is set up to replicate the sound when its not all that close to you and running at speed (a little doppler and echo in it), the other just like it should sound close by... sharper but still with the "breathless" undertone of a Stanier whistle.

REJ
 

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QUOTE (Ozzie21 @ 24 Oct 2008, 20:43) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Richard, I have sent the Black Five and the ESU decoder so if you can do a reasonable version of a wheel slip I'd appreciate it in both.

Thanks
Charles Emerson

**Consider it done!

Oh - and by the way, I know you also have some other sound decoders - what button do you prefer for sound on/off - its easy enough to match the others you have when programming - default for LS is F1, but you can have F8 etc as per mute on Tsunami etc if you want. Just ask.

Richard
 

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Martin and Richard, I didn't mean the station announcements were in any way a bad thing, just that, given what Richard posted earlier, if a sound had to be dropped, the station announcement is not really a part of the driving experience, as opposed to the overall atmosphere, to which it does contribute rather nicely.

Even so, anyone is welcome to disagree because it is just a personal opinion.


The momentum toggle could be a nice enhancement for when I chip an unrebuilt West Country.
 

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Chief mouser
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QUOTE (SRman @ 24 Oct 2008, 13:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The momentum toggle could be a nice enhancement for when I chip an unrebuilt West Country.


And as we all know the Bulleids took wheel slip to a whole new dimension - only surpassed when Blue Peter completely wrecked it's motion a few years ago!

Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
QUOTE (SRman @ 24 Oct 2008, 21:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Martin and Richard, I didn't mean the station announcements were in any way a bad thing, just that, given what Richard posted earlier, if a sound had to be dropped, the station announcement is not really a part of the driving experience, as opposed to the overall atmosphere, to which it does contribute rather nicely.

Even so, anyone is welcome to disagree because it is just a personal opinion.


The momentum toggle could be a nice enhancement for when I chip an unrebuilt West Country.


*** I knew that Zmil - Every one will have a different opinion and thats what I'm looking for. I was only making the point that while the announcement isn't really a driving sound, its actually well used by owners.

In the end I will end up with a set of defaults that can be changed case by case as needed. There are always more on the decoder than are actually activated, so its actually possible to happily customise set-up for each client anyway - just a matter of moving each into or up or down the function list.

I was actually very surprised at the degree of interest in the station announcements myself - I think its one of those things that is a bit different so the owner can trigger to impress the guests, and to be honest with the echo and equalisation adjustments I've done to it is really does sound like its coming from a station not the loco!

I'm currently trying to work out a way of creating a whole set of them so I can match to each region and modellers needs.

I'm scurrying around right now trying to re-find a website I once had bookmarked that took a recording adnmorphed the voices to different national / regional accents to add authenticity. The alternativeis to have MRF membersmake one up is plain language and email me a MP3 or Wave file of it so I can tweak it with the same effects....

Actually I think some of the added features on the sound decoders such as the odd pump or similar will end up going (actually still there but put in a position past Fn 9) as they are also often already heard often enough in the start and random settings.

BTW The momentum in your loksound can be set to toggle OK - but with a handset its really not an easy thing to do.

If you want I can do it for U if you drop in - it'd only take a few minutes to do - the kettle wouldn't even have time to boil :).

Richard
 

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As an ECoS owner, what and where the functions are, doesn't really matter too much as I can remap the position on the control.

I too would be inclined to put the station announcement further away, but I am probably biased by the fact that I don't currently have a platform 10 and my railway is nowhere near the west midlands


I would like to be able to exploit the variable whistle length that ESU are said to have built into the joystick controls.

QUOTE I once had bookmarked that took a recording adnmorphed the voices to different national / regional accents to add authenticity.
Bringing up Peter Handford again, the announcer on his "This is York" recording is pure "RP", and as two tracks demonstrate, her accent did not change over 20 years. I think we see the same announcer in one of the BTF films which shows her knitting between announcements.

David
 

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Like David, it doesn't make much difference to me as I can have all twenty functions laid out in front of me. However I think it better to put the station announcement higher up as when the station announcement is activated the loco will be stationary and you will have time to faf around with shift buttons on those controllers that use them. When you are starting up and heading off you will want to press several function buttons round the same time messing around with shift buttons isn't the go.

I would also like local station announcements as the ones I currently have are a bit far from where my layout is based. I think I can safely say that no station in Fife has ever had a platform 10.
Now that I think about it there are only three stations in Scotland that do.
 
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