Which DCC System?

***Hello Steve

Whichever you decide, its important you are happy with it.

The NCE is surprisingly comfortable in your hand, and is very easy to use even without looking at it as the buttons are each different in feel and are very well placed for comfortable use, so you can enjoy watching the trains not the control unit!

What I don't know is your budget - If you could afford it I'd probably go for the full system at about GBP250.

However the NCE is perhaps the ONLY start set that lets you upgrade in 2 steps with nothing missing in the features at step one, so you could also simply start with the PowerCab which is excellent especially for sound loco's as the functions are so easily used....

This will give you a full system with all features inc power supply for equivalent to just under GBP100.

Later, you could add the full base station from the PowerHouse Pro system (part# sys-box) which will be about GBP160 or so plus another plug in panel to mount at the layout (about GBP10 I guess)

The Powercab controller even comes with the second lead needed for the SYS-box.

That way you would have a working system for the hobby/workbench (ex the original PowerCab purchase) and then just by taking the controller to the layout and plugging it in, a full high power system for the layout.

I am a very long way away from you in Australia - I would very strongly recommend that you look to Bromsgrove models in UK for your NCE - John Russell is an excellent guy to deal with and gives very good service and backup service.

Kind regards

Richard
DCCconcepts

QUOTE (norskman @ 20 Jul 2008, 11:45) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>NCE is possibly nearing the winning post!?

Okay if i were to go for the NCE and i am tempted ...when you say (1) slave controller? does this mean hand held unit remote?
2. it only has two memory slots can this be upgraded? not that even i see this as a problem.

will the NCE work with all chips and accessories? and in Norway.

The NCE comes in two primary forms.

1) The "PowerCab" which is about £100.
That can take one extra handset, which I believe can either be another powercab handset, or one of NCE's smaller handsets.
In addition to the full powercab handset, they offer one push-button handset, and one with a rotary potentiometer, and one with a rotary "encoder". The encoder is more expensive, but means that its not necessary to "match" the speed on the potentiometer. The rotary knob handsets can be either run as "normal" with 300 degree for speed control, and separate direction buttons, or as "yard" with centre-off control.
Whilst the smaller handsets are described as having a switch to swap between two locomotives under control, I don't think this feature can work with just a Powercab (can only cope with one extra handset), you would need the full "Pro" system to use this switch. You can, of course, stop driving a locomotive and then select another on the handset.

2) The "Pro" system, will be nearer £260. That can take a very large number of handsets (probably more than the number of locomotives you own!) and has various other options. As Richard said, you can upgrade the entry system to "Pro" status by buying the extra components. Upgrading to a "Pro" not expensive; the component parts of the system is very similar to buying the entire set, you are not charged a lot extra for starting small and upgrading.

I don't think the "slots" can be upgraded, but I can't see it as a massive issue. Essentially its a quick way of calling up a locomotive previously used, rather than having to key in its address.

I might suggest one other NCE accessory; the automated switch to separate Programming from Layout track. It is a cheap addition. That way you can have a separate programming track and reduce the risk of accidentally reprogramming all the locomotives on your layout to the same decoder settings. (The Digitrax Zephyr previously discussed as a candidate has a separate programming track output on the back, rather than needing an accessory)

The PSU shipped with a PowerCab in the UK is a 220v/110v "wall brick" fitted with US plug. You need a US to EU adaptor (should be cheap, its the travel adaptor for US people visiting the EU), or a different 14v DC 2amp PSU.

Some UK retailers will ship the radio versions of the NCE system, though do not advertise them (I know people who have bought them). They are not approved for EU use, but they should not cause problems for your neighbour's TV or the local emergency services! However, I don't know how strict Norway would be on domestic use of non-approved radio equipment.

Hi Nigel & Richard..
Please can i answer you both at the same time..but firstly thank you ever so much for all the fantastic help and advice which is very much appreciated...i feel i am getting very close now to choosing and from everything i have read i think the NCE(will contact Mr Russel @bromsgrove)

Please excuse me if i seem confused or a bit overwhelmed it takes me longer than most to decipher things!owing to my illness...
i am interested inthe alternative control hand sets? are these instead of the one supplied or as an extra i have nothing against the big handset other than i felt it looked very big and Small controls..but if there are others which are nicer to use or better..i would like very much to explore any pros & cons there maybe?

Would like to say that my room is relatively small..the layout would be max 11 feet long by at most 3 feet wide ...i do not expect to be running all locos at all times (ever) there maybe when finished 8,9,10 locos but not all at once..

I wonder if i should just find best price and go for the NCE pro cab? what do you think?
and if as was suggested i should have accessory units/decoders i will require help with this to..may as well purchase everything required in u.k. even though i will have to pay import VAT ? high charges this end still works out a wee bit cheaper from UK, but almost neutral?
all i would require is continental plug +

QUOTE might suggest one other NCE accessory; the automated switch to separate Programming from Layout track. It is a cheap addition. That way you can have a separate programming track and reduce the risk of accidentally reprogramming all the locomotives on your layout to the same decoder settings.

a good example of add ons would be Nigel's suggestion above..but anything else you can suggest would be most helpful...
there seems to be some really good and very interesting add ons/accessories and i would like to look at these also..
It is difficult as i do not even have a layout as yet?

I am advertising continually for a quality layout..but no luck to date..

without labouring the point to much..i am not able to undertake any modelling work?? i have a lot of problems,with concentration,memory..and so on.... but with regard to modelling:-my hands are not good ..i suffer from chronic psoriasis to the hands which make touching nothing painful it is not pleasant...that is why i have never tried to build before...

so if anyone out there knows of a first class Continental mountain multi level layout please let me know

I am excited about the prospect of RC but wonder if it would be a bit over the top for a small room? please try to convince me...

QUOTE The PSU shipped with a PowerCab in the UK is a 220v/110v "wall brick" fitted with US plug. You need a US to EU adaptor (should be cheap, its the travel adaptor for US people visiting the EU), or a different 14v DC 2amp PSU.

Please just let me know which of the above is the very best option the amp replacement maybe?

hope some of the above made some sense to you

look forward to more advice

and very many thanks
regards Steve

QUOTE (Nigel2001 @ 20 Jul 2008, 13:45) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Some UK retailers will ship the radio versions of the NCE system, though do not advertise them (I know people who have bought them). They are not approved for EU use, but they should not cause problems for your neighbour's TV or the local emergency services! However, I don't know how strict Norway would be on domestic use of non-approved radio equipment.

Just to clarify, the NCE DCC radio system is not legal in the UK (or the rest of the EU for that matter) as the wavelength used is reserved for other uses in the EU. NCE will not ship radio systems to the UK for sale, so if there are retailers selling them then they have not been obtained legally from NCE and will not, I guess, be covered by their warranty. Any retailer selling them will therefore be acting illegally and leaves themselves open to prosecution.

We are one of the main NCE retailers in the UK and have been in discussion with NCE about adapting their radio system for use here but the main problem is the cost of approval testing and certification, which is a 5 figure sum!

Regards

John R
Bromsgrove Models

QUOTE (Brian Considine @ 20 Jul 2008, 19:31) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Maybe my mkI hand is different but I can use the MRC/GM easily with one hand - one of the reasons it's popular with UK modelers is that it does have a knob rather than push buttons for speed control, which also goes to a centre-off knob when shunting mode is selected.

I suppose when it comes to it..you must use the controller/hand set that comes with the particular system you purchase? am i basically correct....as i have never seen any DCC equipment close up..then it is all new to me..but very interesting

cheers Steve

QUOTE (norskman @ 20 Jul 2008, 15:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> i am interested inthe alternative control hand sets? are these instead of the one supplied or as an extra i have nothing against the big handset other than i felt it looked very big and Small controls..but if there are others which are nicer to use or better..i would like very much to explore any pros & cons there maybe?

The alternative handsets are additions to the basic system. They cost between ~£45 and ~£70.
I don't think it is possible to run without at least one "powercab" handset, and certainly not possible to do all normal programming tasks for locomotive setup.

QUOTE Would like to say that my room is relatively small..the layout would be max 11 feet long by at most 3 feet wide ...i do not expect to be running all locos at all times (ever) there maybe when finished 8,9,10 locos but not all at once..

I wonder if i should just find best price and go for the NCE pro cab? what do you think?

I would have thought the basic PowerCab set for £100 would be adequate. Add a second handset if required later. But take advice from retailers such as Richard and John R

QUOTE and if as was suggested i should have accessory units/decoders i will require help with this to..may as well purchase everything required in u.k. even though i will have to pay import VAT ? high charges this end still works out a wee bit cheaper from UK, but almost neutral?
all i would require is continental plug +

If you have to pay VAT on import from UK (and other EU countries), then I would expect to not pay VAT in the UK/EU (or get refund). UK VAT is 17.5%.

QUOTE I am excited about the prospect of RC but wonder if it would be a bit over the top for a small room? please try to convince me...

As you originally preferred a "desk" based controller, such as the Zephyr or ESU, I wonder if radio is a major requirement.

regards,

- Nigel

Two bobs worth - I purchased a Digitrax 5 amp DCS100 radio system from Richard as it happens and I couldn't be happier, have had no problems as my first ever unit, installing DCC decoders and programming them operating smoke units etc.

Take that on as you wish

QUOTE (Nigel2001 @ 21 Jul 2008, 05:16) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would have thought the basic PowerCab set for £100 would be adequate. Add a second handset if required later. But take advice from retailers such as Richard and John R

regards,

- Nigel

***Steve...
Given your last post I'd agree with Ngels last post: start with the PowerCab and upgrade later.

***Paul/Lancashire Fusilier....
Yes, but you have a very linear approach to your layout and your decision arrived after your having preplanned all layout control using D brand items and so mentally were totally committed already..... It goes back to my earlier post, making your mind up after defining needs clearly, which you had done. Your approach is very rare indeed.

***Brian...
There is no mk1 and mk 2 handset - they are all the same.
The 3 modellers I asked to evaluate it found the postioning of the knob counter intuitive and unnatural, as did I.... certainly not a convenenient 1 handed controller in comparison to the options.

Richard
DCCconcepts

Richard, I think you missed the joke here: Brian referred to his mk1 hand, not handset!

Whispered aside: It sounds to me like he may have an extra elbow and wrist joint!

QUOTE (SRman @ 21 Jul 2008, 14:00) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Richard, I think you missed the joke here: Brian referred to his mk1 hand, not handset!

Whispered aside: It sounds to me like he may have an extra elbow and wrist joint!

Oh gawd - I have to slow down - sorry

Richard

Morning Everyone..
again i could not wait to switch on the PC to see what new advice had arrived...brilliant..
i am in touch with John @Bromsgrove models..he as already been invaluable with his suggestions..and i will most definitely be dealing with him..if he has the patience?
I was getting myself into an over complicated situation with the alternative hand sets e.t.c. and do now understand that i need to use the supplied power cab for most of my main functions on the layout do not see the point of fixing panels for extra handsets..to a 12 feet layout that is only operated from front?I am seeing far more clearly now..as the song goes!!

Re-Customs % VAT e.t.c. yes i am aware of the VAT situation..as i order stuff most days from u.k. & Europe...trouble is this end our vat is 25.%+ £15-->up-wards for post Norway collection charges..so it is always a balancing act..and the Norwegian customs are very efficient indeed!

But it is just one of those things..helped a little by VAT exemption in u.k.

Anyway chaps it looks like for a start off i will be going for the NCE because all of you have more than persuaded me this system is excellent in all the right areas...and i may just buy there Cab 5 rotary controller just to have that feel?which if i have understood properly can be plugged in to the power cab unit? (are there better alternatives to the NCE cab 5 which could work??)

most of this debate focused..i.e. me liking the Zephyr because it had a fixed controller throttle e.t.c.

so for the moment at least all the very best any further suggestions always welcome

regards Steve [/size]

Steve,

It looks like you've had many replies!
I've just got back home from being in hospital having my discectomy, 4 days in hospital is very boring!!

I have the NCE PowerCab and it is a fantastic bit of kit.
I've also bought many items from John at Bromsgrove models.

If you look at this link to my review of the NCE PowerCab.

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...ost&p=45309

Also if you click on my BLOG link I have written up a bit about fitting the NCE Smart Booster to the set up as well!

When you buy the PowerCab it has a 2amp max power supply and like you have found out you can only add 1 further controller.

By adding the Smart Booster, you connect a 3amp supply to this which then gives you a max of 3amps to the track, it also allows you to run trains and completely unplug the controller as a true walkabout and all will still run.
It also allows you to add a further 4 cabs.
It's just a different way of upgrading the system, if you don't want to go for the full Powerhouse Pro system.
I did it this way as I had a spare 3amp power supply.

I think you will be impressed, anyway take a look at that link and my blog which will give you some more info on my set up, which may help you or at least give you more information.

Going for a lie down!

Cheers

Hello Wiggy...
many thanks for a superb reply..and you are quite right i have been overwhelmed by all the fantastic and very kind advice,,very much appreciated..John @ Bromsgrove as been a diamond! really as..because i am hard work he as sent many p.m.s answering fully my many questions..as well as putting up with my confusion!First Rate...

the more i read..about NCE the more i learn and the more impressed i become

Must admit it as taken time for things to sink in but i am getting there...NCE-POWER & PRO(most folk including John suggest i need no more than the power cab) I just like idea of having pro cab from the start...

I am so enjoying exploring the world of DCC and the add on bits (accessory units/decoders e.t.c.) to which i am keen to know & learn a bit about....and it will make what ever layout i obtain?? that bit more interesting..

I think your blog together with the review section on DCC is first class...and i can understand most of it...which helps!!

I hope you are able to rest and get over your operation

all the very best & many thanks to both your goodself and everyone else

Regards Steve

QUOTE (wiggy25 @ 23 Jul 2008, 16:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Steve,

It looks like you've had many replies!
I've just got back home from being in hospital having my discectomy, 4 days in hospital is very boring!!

I have the NCE PowerCab and it is a fantastic bit of kit.
I've also bought many items from John at Bromsgrove models.

If you look at this link to my review of the NCE PowerCab.

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...ost&p=45309

Also if you click on my BLOG link I have written up a bit about fitting the NCE Smart Booster to the set up as well!

When you buy the PowerCab it has a 2amp max power supply and like you have found out you can only add 1 further controller.

By adding the Smart Booster, you connect a 3amp supply to this which then gives you a max of 3amps to the track, it also allows you to run trains and completely unplug the controller as a true walkabout and all will still run.
It also allows you to add a further 4 cabs.
It's just a different way of upgrading the system, if you don't want to go for the full Powerhouse Pro system.
I did it this way as I had a spare 3amp power supply.

I think you will be impressed, anyway take a look at that link and my blog which will give you some more info on my set up, which may help you or at least give you more information.

Going for a lie down!

Cheers

Hi Steve,

I'm glad your enjoying it all, it's all part of the learning curve and enjoyment of the hobby!.

Yes you could easily go for the PowerHouse Pro system to start with, but to be honest the PowerCab even at 2amps will run many locos!

My dad runs 4 N-gauge locos at once with his PowerCab one also has sound fitted, which gives an idea of how much it can run and this wasn't the full limit either!
For his birthday I bought him the extra delux Cab from John @ Bromsmods.

He now uses one to change points and one to run the engines, he also now has the ability to store two locos in each handheld cab in the recall stack.

The nice thing with the PowerCab is that ammeter to see what current is being drawn, very useful I can't understand why the Power House Pro doesn't have that feature it's a nice thing to have!

Have you been onto the NCE web site and read the manuals for both systems? always worth while when looking at a new system!

You know that as soon as you get it your going to have to post photos of the layout and setup!!

Cheers

H Wiggy
good to hear from you again..

must say the way you speak about NCE really does excite me...i can not wait to get one or the other system..i have read the manuals got a bit bogged down..but that was not the manuals thats just me..i am afraid!

At the moment at least i have 4 locos all DCC two are Brawa with sound one with smoke also... if for instance i was happening to run say 4 of these at one time?? would the power cab have what it requires power wise to cope? especilally if you include lights..points..and all the other bits which hopefully will be part of unknown layout? i think that was why i thought go for pro cab first?

Now excuse me for been a bit confused but you bought your dad the Pro cab hand set ,am i correct..to go with his Power cab?does that mean he did not have the full pro cab set up..or have i blown a fuse again?

I think i should go lie down wiggy

look forward to hearing back

all the best Steve

Hi Steve,

Firstly I would run the points off their own separate power supply!
If you have a short circuit anywhere you won't be able to change the points, just something I found out when doing my layout.

I don't know what power all of the lights, smoke unit and sounds would use, having only 4 locos I think it would be ok, anymore though and I think you may need some more power
I would speak to John and ask for his advice on that one.

The PowerCab comes complete with the PowerCab (handheld controller) the cables and the little transformer/power supply.
The Handheld unit or PowerCab contains everything inside it, booster, DCC signal generator , brain etc.

The Power House Pro has the Handheld controller....called a PRO-CAB this plugs into a black box the PowerHouse Pro system box which contains the DCC signal generator, booster, PC interface, brain etc.

So each system comes complete ready to use out of the box.

The PowerCab can be upgraded by just buying the Powerhouse Pro system box and a 5amp power supply. the PowerCab just plugs into the box and will automatically switch to Pro-Cab function.....basically it will use all of the electronics in the system box and NOT inside itself.

This is why the PowerCab can be upgaded so easily to the Powerhouse Pro.
This is the route I would recommend, the reason being, you can connect the PowerCab upto your layout and be running straight away no problem.
Later you might upgrade and buy the Powerhouse Pro box and still run everything.

If you then build a small micro layout or working diorama, you wouldn't need to use the full Powerhouse Pro system, but just to run everything, instead of buying a new control system you could fit the PowerCab power panel to this layout and plug the PowerCab into it and run it as a full working layout, you only then need to swap the cable and 'PowerCab' handheld cab between layouts(all the cables are supplied!)

You couldn't do this if you bought the full PowerHouse Pro set first, as the Pro-Cab handheld needs the separate system box to work; it hasn't got the inbuilt brain that the PowerCab has.

It's hard to explain but when you've got it in your hand it's very easy, my dads 75 and he uses it no problem!

You can buy extra handsets for the systems as you have seen, the Cab04e or Cab 04p or the Cab05.
You can also buy an extra Pro-Cab this is a handset that looks identical to the PowerCab handheld controller and is basically the same one as supplied in the Powerhouse Pro set.

The reason I bought this extra Pro-cab for my dad is because it has the LCD screen on it which shows all required information, makes it much easier to follow whats happening.
I could have bought one of the other cabs but then you need to remember what address you've typed in or which point you've accessed, with the LCD screen all of this information is shown.

It's slightly confusing with the naming of the cabs but like I've said it does make sense...eventually!

Cheers

Steve asked me about this so I've done this little diagram.
If it's wrong then please someone copy the image and alter it and repost it!!.

I thought it would be of use to anybody starting up a new layout.
This thread could do with being made sticky as it has lots of useful information for those new to DCC.
This is why it's hard to say which DCC system, you need to know what you goal is at the end so you can wire up everything to get to that goal, it's much harder to alter things afterwards, and no chance when ballasting and the like has been done.

Anyway.

This diagram shows the main DCC signal coming in to the NCE CP6 6 way circuit protector, these are just light bulbs which light up if there is a short circuit, it will not shut down th epower to that section though, so a proper circuit protector should be used!
For clarity I've only used 4 sections.
Each section is isolated from another section by using insulated joiners in both rails as shown by the green blocks on the track.
The feeder wires are connected to each side of the rail and then goto the main DCC power us for that section, I connect the feeder wires each side of a metal fish plate so I'm not relying on these for conducting the power! Remember the sections can be quite large!
The sections have to be big enough to hold your longest train completely.
In one of the feeder wires there is a NCE BD-20 this is an occupancy detector which will give an output when that section has something running in it by detecting a change in the current.

EDIT:- There should be only one set of dropper wires from each section if using the BD-20!

I've also shown the accessory decoders for point control on their own circuit, this is so if you have a short circuit or fault anywhere the accesory decoders will still work.
Also if if you have a short in any 1 section the lamp on the CP6 board will light up that section will not work but the other ones will!

Fault finding is quite easy as you can lable each section.

Example

Section 1:- outerloop
Section 2:- Inner loop
Section 3:- Station
Section 4:- Fiddle yard
Section 5:- Accesory decoders

Gives you an idea, of how easy or complicated this can be, hence how difficult it is when asked which DCC system, we do need a little more information than that

Hope it helps and if I've missed anything or something isn't quite right please correct it and state why, hopefully this thread will make a great DCC starter for those new to it all!

Cheers

QUOTE (wiggy25 @ 24 Jul 2008, 21:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Steve asked me about this so I've done this little diagram.
If it's wrong then please someone copy the image and alter it and repost it!!.

Hope it helps and if I've missed anything or something isn't quite right please correct it and state why, hopefully this thread will make a great DCC starter for those new to it all!

Cheers

Ian

I appreciate the motivation and effort you've gone to with it but it is a bit wrong I am afraid.

(1) The primary droppers to the section go through the BD20 ferrite core and these are the ONLY droppers to that section - the BD20 is not added in parallel with other existing droppers in the same section.... if other droppers excist the BD20 will not see anything at all!

(2) The CP6 is a current limiting device but is NOT a full overload protection in the same sense as an EB3 or other brand short circuit protector. It only buffers shorts and limits the current to below system shut down.... but it still leaves more than normal power going through the offending device (ie the loco or wagon thats derailed). For systems other than PowerCab higher current bulbs are needed. (it should be highlighted that its ratings are powercab specific in this application).

In general the CP6 should be used to help where the odd frog is giving annoying momentary shorts or other intermittent issues, but it should in my opinion not really be used to totally replace full "power off to section" short circuit protecton.

Richard
DCCconcepts