[poliss]

This is what the Steam Locomotive Glossary says. http://www.railway-technical.com/st-glos.shtml
"A locomotive with the 4-6-2 wheel arrangement. The first 4-6-2s were built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works in the US for the NZ Railways, hence the name." Also mentioned, amongst others, is the Atlantic. Built for the Atlantic Coast Railroad running from Atlantic City NJ to Camden.

 

[Doug]

And the 4-6-4 Baltic?

Did somebody sit down and come up with a naming system or were they names after the prototype?

 

[7113]

QUOTE (Doug @ 8 Sep 2008, 16:40) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And the 4-6-4 Baltic?

Did somebody sit down and come up with a naming system or were they names after the prototype?

Basically Doug the answer is yes, his name was Frederick Methvan Whyte and he devised what is now known as the Whyte notation. The following may help: http://everything2.com/title/Whyte%2520notation I would guess he was American by the names used.

Regards

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Doug @ 8 Sep 2008, 23:40) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And the 4-6-4 Baltic?

Did somebody sit down and come up with a naming system or were they names after the prototype?

***It seems largely a US thing that stuck and gradually spread.... US railroads didn't go much for naming individual loco's after the very early days so for simplicity and publicity sake gave wheel arrangement names:

In the US they were mostly named by the first creator of the arrangement but it didn't always stick...

As an example, this excerpt tells the story of the Northern or US 4-8-4 locomotive...and similar things happened with other wheel arrangements...

Quote:

" The first 4-8-4 was built by the American Locomotive Company, in January, 1927, for the Northern Pacific. This locomotive was basically the 4-8-2 modified to accomodate a large grate area and a very deep firebox which was required to burn the very low grade of bituminous coal that the Northern Pacicific produced from its own mines. This new wheel arrangement was dubbed "Nothern Pacific", which was quickly shortened to "Northern". There were 36 North American Railroads that owned and operated a total of 1,126 "Northern" type locomotives. Some railroads, particularly the southern ones, rejected the "Northern" name and used names with a more regional connection.

The C&O called them "Greenbriers";
the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western used the name "Poconos";
the Lehigh Valley came up with "Wyoming";
the Nashville, Chattanooga & St.Louis named them "Dixies";
the New York Central chose "Niagaras";
the Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac named each of its 27, 4-8-4s after southern generals, governors and statesmen;
the Southern Pacific used the name "Golden State";
the Western Maryland dubbed them "Potomacs"
and in Canada, the CNR named them "Confederations"
while the Nacionale de Mexico called them "Niagras".

regards

Richard

 

[dwb]

The LNER encyclopedia site calls 4-4-0s "Americans"

David

 

[alastairq]

then there were the mikes...or mikados...2-8-2......and consols, or consolidations....2-8-0....and prairies, the 2-6-2....moguls were 2-6-0.......decapods were rather self explanatory..[2-10-0].....plus there were the russians.....I think these were 4-8-0, not sure..but the name came from locos built to order, but not taken up, so they were sold off to local railroads...

 

[Ed Allen]

Not to forget the 4-6-4 'Baltics'
Ed

 

[Nick Holliday]

I don't think Federick Methvan Whyte actually came up with any of the names. He was Dutch-born but brought up in the USA and he devised hisnumerical notation (4-6-2 etc.) around 1900, before many of the names were chosen. The listing just places the commonest tags against his wheel arrangements, and as it looks an American site, this probably explains why some are unfamiliar to UK readers.
I believe that most of the names that came up were relatively random, derived from nick-names or the company first associated with the type. I would suggest that the only contrived one is Baltic - someone seeing a progression from Atlantic to Pacific and beyond, and picking a suitable nautical name, as I am not aware of any particular association between the wheel arrangement and the various Baltic states. If fate had been different, we might be talking about Adriatics or Antarctics instead!

 

[john woodall]

Isn't if funny that about the only name that was reasonably universal around the world was Pacific.

When anyone alks about a Baltic or a northern most would have no idea, but talk about a Pacific and automatically you think 4-6-2 OR 2-3-1 in some places!

John

 

[34C]

And the US term for a 4-6-4 is a Hudson. The New York Central Railroad was the largest user of the type, (and a very successful type it was) with a route in the Hudson valley, so some local relationship there.

 

[Bigboy]

QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 9 Sep 2008, 08:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would suggest that the only contrived one is Baltic - someone seeing a progression from Atlantic to Pacific and beyond, and picking a suitable nautical name, as I am not aware of any particular association between the wheel arrangement and the various Baltic states. If fate had been different, we might be talking about Adriatics or Antarctics instead!

Not so. The New York Central ordered their first 4-6-4 locos in 1914 and called them Hudsons after their famous waterlevel route along that river. In the same year the German K. P. E. V. (Royal Prussian Railway Undertaking) ordered the first of a class of tank locomotives for use mainly on local passenger duties but also short distance express services and also freight duties.

They found that the 4-6-4 wheel arrangement made for a chassis which rode well in reverse as well as forwards. So successful was that class that it was built to some 530 examples and some examples were still serving DB in 1970. This was the KPEV class T18, later DRG, DR and DB class 78. (Usually designated BR78.)

And the connection with Baltic? The KPEV's operating territory extended most of the way along the southern shore of that sea from the Danish border to what is now Gdansk inPoland.

After the success of the Prussian 4-6-4T locos the wheel arrangement became quite popular in Britain and elsewhere. Though, at least in Britain, the Adriatic 2-6-4T wheel arrangement became much more common for similar duties. That wheel arrangement was introduced in 1909 by the Austrian State Railways and named because of their use on services to the eastern shore of that sea. Remember that territory was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in these days and indeed WW I started with the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand in Sarajevo, right there.

In North America about 500 tender 4-6-4s were built in many different designs for a wide variety of railways. There were also a couple of dozen passenger tanks for suburban services. This reflected general American practice where tank locomotives were used in much smaller quantities than in Britain and Europe.
Hope this helps.
Alex. W. Stirrat

 

[john woodall]

I will be honest, I have never heard of the German class 78 being referred to as anything other than a class 78.
Class 78.0-2 262 built between 1912-1922
Class 78.3-5 173 built between 1923-1924
Even the Wurttemburgers built 20 of them (also class 78.0-2), but they were found to operate better in Prussia, so the DRG moved them to Prussia and sent 20 of the 78.3-5's to Wurttemberg.

What a funny world!

John

 

[Bigboy]

QUOTE (alastairq @ 8 Sep 2008, 20:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>.......decapods were rather self explanatory..[2-10-0].....plus there were the russians.....I think these were 4-8-0, not sure..but the name came from locos built to order, but not taken up, so they were sold off to local railroads...

Decapod was one of these terms where American and British English differed. Two nations separated by a common language.

There was only one British decapod, an 0-10-0 tank engine experimentally built by Holden for the GER in an effort to improve their extremely intensively worked steam suburban service out of Liverpool Street. The so called Jazz service. It was not a great success and no more were built. It was not until WW II that 10 coupled locomotives were built for use in Britain, the WD 2-10-0 Austerity class and later the BR standard 9F. I have never heard of these refered to by anything other than 2-10-0s; no name.

The locomotives you refer to as "Russian" were actually "Russian Decapods" 2-10-0 buit by the American firm of Baldwin for the Czarist Russian Government. The Bolshevik revolution of 1917 took place while the order was being built and the US government prevented the export of the undelivered part of the order. These locomotives were re-guaged from 5 feet to 4'=81/2" and sold to american railroads.

Russian track, like many secondary American routes were lightly laid and not in particularly good condition and the Russian Decapods were actually fairly small engines with 10 drivers to spread their weight as lightrly as possible onto the rails rather than masive freight hauling brutes loaded to the maximum.

Bachmann do an HO model of this for the North American market. See http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/pro...mp;productId=87 for a picture.

Hope this helps.

Alex. W. Stirrat

 

[Ed Allen]

"There was only one British decapod, an 0-10-0 tank engine experimentally built by Holden for the GER "

There were actually two British 0-10-0 locos, the other being the famouse Lickey banker, 'Big Bertha', sometimes referred to as Big Emma, built specifically after the Great war by the Midland railway for pushing trains up Bromsgrove Bank in the Midlands. She performed her duties until about 1956 before being broken up. Her cylinders were preserved.

With reference to the nautical theme discussed, as a fan of the Lancashire and Yorkshire, I am very fond of the Hughes/Fowler 2-6-0 'Crabs'. this nickname is attributed to their crab-like appearance but there is information that these engines were to be called the 'Caribbean' class and the crab name may be a shortening of this.
Interestingly, I think there were no 'Baltic' tender engines in the UK, all being tanks. They were used by the GSWR, LYR, LTSR, Furness Ry and LBSCR. Also, there was only one 2-6-2 tender loco, that being the Midlands 'Paget', another experiment.
Ed

 

[Bigboy]

QUOTE (Ed Allen @ 10 Sep 2008, 23:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There were actually two British 0-10-0 locos, the other being the famouse Lickey banker, 'Big Bertha', sometimes referred to as Big Emma, built specifically after the Great war by the Midland railway for pushing trains up Bromsgrove Bank in the Midlands. She performed her duties until about 1956 before being broken up. Her cylinders were preserved.
Ed

Yes, I overlooked that one, not really being a great follower of LMS affairs

"Interestingly, I think there were no 'Baltic' tender engines in the UK, all being tanks. They were used by the GSWR, LYR, LTSR, Furness Ry and LBSCR. "
I don't know of any British Baltic tender engines either. Most of these tank 'Baltics' fell into the ownership of the LMS and were replaced by 'Adriatics' relatively early on in the interests of standardisation.

Incidentally, in the USA the Millwaukee Road (C.M.St.P&P) had a famous small fleet of 4-6-4 tender locos which they used on their very high speed express trains but always referred to as Baltics rather than Hudsons, not wanting to give way to the NYC publicity.

"Also, there was only one 2-6-2 tender loco, that being the Midlands 'Paget', another experiment. "

I think you are as forgetful of things LNER as I am of the LMS. The LNER had 184 tender 2-6-2 locomotives in class V2, designed by Gresley as fast mixed traffic locomotives. Some of the V2 boilers were used on some LNER pacifics and the V2s were not far behind the pacifics in performance capacity and shared many duties.
I believe one of the heaviest trains taken out of Kings Cross during the war was hauled by a V2.
There were also 2 V4 tender locos used on more secondary duties. Incidentally I have seldom heard of any of these LNER engines referred to as "Prairies".

Hope this helps,
Alex. W. Stirrat

 

[Ed Allen]

[Yes, sorry, I overlooked them...not really a great follower of LNER affairs....down that route lies madness

Still, at least I overlooked more than you did !
Regrds
Ed.

 

[Bigboy]

Further to some different wheel arrangements being discussed here I have looked out some relevent pictures of various locomotives.

Adriatic. One of the original Austrian 2-6-4 tender locomotives of class 310 (Loco 310.23) is preserved in operating condition with some funding from Roco.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/at/steam/...10_23_bild1.jpg

German Baltic Tank.
http://galtran.com/BR78.gif

A British (ex-LBSCR) Tank
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/imfile/14891.jpg

Milwaukee Road "Baltiic" 4-6-4 tender locomotive on their Hiawautha high speed train.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Midwest_Hiawatha_1943.jpg

NYC streamlined "Hudson" 4-6-4 as used on the 20th Century Limited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NYC_Hudson2.jpg

Holden's 0-10-0T decapod tank enngine for the 'Jazz' suburban service out of Liverpool St. (G.E.R.)
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/imfile/14892.jpg

"Big Berth" Lickey banker 0-10-0 decapod.
http://lickeyarchive.photobook.org.uk/p21760046.html

The "Paget" 2-6-2 experimental tender loco.
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCO...paget/paget.htm

LNER V2 2-6-2 tender locomotive as preserved by the NRM and running excursions until very recently when its boiler certificate expired
http://www.bbc.co.uk/tyne/content/images/2...row_470x374.jpg

LNER V4 2-6-2 tender locomotive.
http://www.lner.info/locos/V/v4.shtml

Enjoy

Alex. W. Stirrat