[Colletts Apprentice]

Hello everyone.

I have just come back to Model railways after an absence of many years and boy have things changed for the better.

I would like some advice and members thoughts on how far it is permissible to push the scale envelope...

Let me explain why I ask. I want to recreate a local (beechinged) station. Problem is if I do it to scale it comes in at 20 odd metres in baseboard lengh - I don't have that kind of space. Is it ok to scale it down some what to fit the space I do have (5 metres) or is this fround on.

Secondly does any one know of a good water Mill kit - I would like to add one with a top feed - there enters another problem the only hills I have planned all have returns (rail) in side them so water would not have run over the top of them in the prototype. I was thinking of toping the hill in rock or doing a Brunnel and creating a water bridge - Your Thoughts.

Last question. Period - As the railway is no more would it be acceptable to remodel the track layout as if the line had be reserected and run as a steam presivation line. The original was a single branch line and from virtual running is a little boring so for added interest I want to add a Up line to the existing downline and move the turntable to the other side of the track/station.

Best regards

Steve - sorry for the long first post

 

[Robert Stokes]

Just about everybody in this hobby has to make compromises with regard to space. Compressing a prototype plan is very common. Anyway, who would do the frowning and what right would they have to do so? It's your layout; do what you like!

 

[Colletts Apprentice]

Thanks for the quick reply Robert.

That makes me feel a whole lot better - I am hoping that I might use the layout for exhibition purposes at some time (as I did when I was much younger) and read many comments on-line that being true to the real world is imporant to some. I just wanted to confirm this is not everyones take on the subject.

No doubt I will be back with other questions... It is great to know that there are so many members on this forum with years of expereince - I have already learnt so much and been impressed with the information here plus ideas I have picked up.

Many thanks

Steve

 

[John Webb]

Welcome to the Forum!

If anything realistic does have to be sacrificed it's the length of a prototype station. I'm involved with restoring a signal box and we wondered about having a model railway of the prototype layout from the 1970s with points and signals operated by some form of switches on the actual levers. In 4mm scale the layout would have been several feet longer than the full-size signalbox! So we dropped that idea.

My own small layout is based on a station on a preserved railway which is a passing place on a single line. My choice was influenced by the fact that most preserved lines run relatively short trains. Furthermore, any livery can be used with engines from any part of the BR system, so I can run trains without fear of anyone saying 'That never happened in real life'.

Best wishes for your efforts,
John Webb

PS If you are looking for information on your prototype, there is a 'Prototype' sub-forum which is the best place to ask questions - it's surprising what a lot of information (or sources of information) comes up there when people post questions.

 

[alastairq]

QUOTE Secondly does any one know of a good water Mill kit - I would like to add one with a top feed - there enters another problem the only hills I have planned all have returns (rail) in side them so water would not have run over the top of them in the prototype. I was thinking of toping the hill in rock or doing a Brunnel and creating a water bridge - Your Thoughts.

Metcalf Models do some suitable old farm buildings which can be converted/altered to suit....

http://www.metcalfemodels.com/acatalog/Manor_Farm_Barn.html

as an example?

Check out Town strret models too..although these come a bit pricey as they are ready-made....

http://www.superquick.co.uk/kitframes_b/frame_b26.htm

is a suggestion from |Superquick......all pre-coloured.

Scaledale from Hornby???...seemed less promising...as does Bachmann's Scenecraft range.....

HO scaled kits from Faller, etc, are of distinctly continental origin, so may....[or may not?] fit your scheme of things???

as for concerns about trackwork 'returning' under hills you wish to run a stream off.....this would be entirely prototypical.......Severn Tunnel, for example?.....however, as I read you post, the 'returning' tracks seem to be deliberately hidden........since, regardless of whether a layout is prototypical, or to scale in every respect...or even, a trainset oval....the layout is in reality a bit of 'theatre'....return tracks, ie the other half of an oval....hidden sidings, storage yards, etc....are all merely a piece of theatre, with the 'stage' being the scenic part...[I have known a storage yard to have been 'scenicked'....as it proved to hold the public's attention more than the scenic side..........]

regarding your last para....whilst there is absolutely no problem with yo modelling the line as a 'preserved' railway..[bear in mind, the old stock will mostly look super-immaculate...or else be hidden under tarps......]......there IS the option of modelling the line....as if it hadn't been closed at all.

Why not take a look at old Ordnance Survey maps of the original, and see whether any local industry COULD have had a rail link? This might 'enhance' your traffic flows? [dairies, small factories, etc?]

the lack of entertaining traffic flows was likley the reason the line closed in the first place.......so why not shop around for other, more amenable prototype candidates as inspiration?

This will give an idea of prototypical track layouts and signalling...something that an'inspired guess' of a model sometimes misses altogether, leading to a certain lack of 'realsim?'

 

[dwb]

For the kind of water mill you mention try the following manufacturers for such kits. You find the buildings are too continental on flavour but you could keep the water wheel and it's supporting structure and scratch build something more British to go with it.

Heljan HO start page
Faller HO start page
Kibri HO start page

I've never been convinced by real water on models as small as OO. It lacks the "high energy" of the real thing doing its stuff through a water wheel, or over a water fall. The woodland scenics solution might be more convincing.
Woodland Scenics US Home page for water

There's no reason why you shouldn't model a resurrected preserved line. There are many fine layouts on the exhibition circuit which are based on "What might have been". So long as the model is internally consistent, it will be convincing. Preserved lines are subject to the same regulations and inspections as Network Rail, so your model will still be constrained / directed by real life.

David

 

[34C]

QUOTE (Colletts Apprentice @ 25 Jan 2009, 13:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>.. I am hoping that I might use the layout for exhibition purposes at some time (as I did when I was much younger) and read many comments on-line that being true to the real world is important to some. I just wanted to confirm this is not everyones take on the subject. ..
Steve,

It's the artistry with which you 'bend the rules' that will interest other modellers at exhibitions. The modest station you are proposing, which in reality straggles along for a mile, is the classic problem; can you retain the essentials of the track layout, and capture something of the atmospehere of the real place in five metres? What will you omit entirely, what can be heavily compressed, what must be represented at close to scale size to give an uncluttered appearance? The recently returned to the exhibition circuit 'Borchester Market' is a case in point. Objectively it is seriously compressed, but it looks like the railway in operation, and with so much to enjoy the underscale compromises are out of the spotlight.

As for the relatively few who make something of a fetish of 'dead scale'. Examine the layouts built by those who espouse such doctrines: it is a rare thing to see check rails in place on 10 chain and smaller radius curves on all passenger carrying tracks, with the appropriate very low speeds enforced. Yet such there must be if absolute fidelity is the aim.

 

[frame69]

Hi Steve, as regards to your scale issue,I have in my collection of dvds an article that explains solutions to this problem. The chap who built the layout on the film points out the relationship between views from the same point of the model and the real thing. He suppressed some of the rear items to give it a distance/depth,he then explains about distance between eyeballs of human scale and that of scaled down figures. May sound complicated but basically he is saying that if you shrunk yourself down and looked from the same point you would see stuff in a different perspective because the eyes would be closer together.(this could sound like a load of ***p,but watching the dvd makes a lot of sense and makes you realise that compromises have to be made)
P.S, as everyone else has pointed out its your layout so you do as you please and enjoy yourself!

 

[Colletts Apprentice]

Well Big thanks to all who have posted&#8230; certainly have some food for thought on this scale thing.

As I indicated the full size thing (used OS maps from 1890 and signal diagrams) was going to be huge so I am pleased that you guys all feel that it ok to shrink things down even further.

I was thinking that if I can scratch build the station building to almost spot on scale and reduce the platform size that would take care of things. As the station and over rail canopy are still standing (Grade 1 listed) and subject therefore to strict planning regulations I have managed to obtained some architectural drawings of these buildings, The guy even found a signal box diagram from the next station (up) which is two thirds the length of the one I need so I can model that as well. Also the station building is a five minute walk from my house and fully accessible (joys of living in the country side) so I have loads of photos of it..

The track layout looks very similar to the prototype all be it condensed and as I say I have used the passing loop to become a line in its own right and I feel that it is a sympathetic update and therefore does not detract from originality.

As mentioned above: the comment about little traffic and hence the line closure is exactly what happened.. In 1962 the line was costing £22.000.00 pa to run and the revenue was only some £4,000.00 IIRC so it was a no brainer to close it.

I think I am going to use some artistic license here and there as per the general guidance you have all kindly provided&#8230;

Thanks also for the water mill links - they lead me to find what I think will work well (with modification) - it is a model from Wills Craftsman CK22 and looks like it will do the job and it is less than £20.00 so a bargain!

I agree with the comment about 00 water effects - but this is why I wanted it as I like a challenge and can always grass over the area if it all goes Pete Tong! I did see some good looking stuff on the Peco site from GM??? Typically I can't find the page now but I think it will do the job.

Sorry I am rambling on. - I'll get me coat.

Many thanks once again, you have all been most helpful and generous with your time.

Steve

 

[alastairq]

you can always follow th lead of various authors on the subject of planning.....and model half the station....perhaps with just the important trackwork?....Platfporms can be long and tedious...so by 'missing out' much of the length..9hiding it from view, so to speak....a suitably placed overbridge, for example.......[Dingwall springs to mind]...

If shortening the platforms' length to fit , try making them narrower as well......makes them 'look' less short...

 

[60134]

Does anyone remember those amazing museum dioramas that once featured in the Railway Modeller (in the 1970s?), all LNWR set around Runcorn. I seem to remember a fantastic freight train which was 7mm scale at the front and tapered to something the size of N scale at the back - an incredible trompe l'oeil!

60134

 

[dwb]

QUOTE I seem to remember a fantastic freight train which was 7mm scale at the front and tapered to something the size of N scale at the back

I think I've seen that at the NRM, or something very like it.

David

 

[Brian Considine]

I vagually remember it, & it was something discussed over the weekend when running SL (in between handing out lollies to the "penguin spotters" LOL.