I wouldnt expect there to be a designated van kip at a branch terminus (such things were normally only found at marshalling yards or bigger goods depots); most terminii would be able to accommodate a van somewhere but then again, for some shunts it would be as easy to leave it in the formation as it was shunted.

But in all honesty, there are as many answers to this question as there are prototype locations that would involve such movements, and even then there'd be more than one way to do things at a given spot. In summary - focus on the word 'convenient', I think.

 

An interesting question Robert.

Many years ago, at a time when un-braked trains were still trundling around the network, I worked in a siding complex at Chesterton Junction, just to the north of Cambridge. If my memory serves me right there were 5 (or was that 6) through reception/departure roads. We received, shunted and despatched rakes of wagons that required a brake van at the rear. We had a dedicated short siding that was used to stable brake vans and one feature of this siding was a sleeper built open topped coal bunker (more a three sided coal pen), which was used to supply coal to the brake vans. We had a real incentive to shunt the brake vans into the siding as walking the length of the sidings to replenish a far distant brake van stove was definitely to be avoided. I cannot be certain but I seem to remember 4 or 5 buckets of coal per brake van, plus newspaper and kindling was not unusual. Obviously we also had the task of unloading coal from a mineral wagon into the bunker.

Branch line termini would have had a similar arrangement if it was necessary to coal up an incoming brake van. The ideal location to stable brake vans would be a short spur siding adjacent to the signal box as the coal supply could also be handily placed for the signalman's use. Looking at photographs of your chosen locations in this time period will be the best way to check what actually happened. A variation would be to stable a departmental mineral wagon loaded with coal in the chosen spur siding and use that wagon in lieu of a bunker.

Best regards .............. Greyvoices (alias John)

 

The one thing that you can be reasonably sure of is that the Brake van arriving at a small terminus would normally be berthed (screwed down) on a non-passenger, Non-running Line. (That is basically any track that trains carrying passengers are not going to work on).

There is a small possibility that the brake would be screwed down in a passenger Bay platform. Usually this would only be if the Bay platform had a Trap Point before the exit - and that would be relatively unusual unless the Bay was classed as Non-Running Line - even though it was used for passenger traffic. This combination could occur. It would tend to be where the Bay saw relatively little passenger traffic but also saw a fair amount of van (NPCS) traffic. The Trap arrangement would mean that vans could be pinned down (brakes set) and left unattended in the Bay platform. Tis would tend to happen for traffic such as milk.

There is an even smaller possibility that the brake van would be left against the stops in the main passenger platform... clearly, however, this would tend to limit the use of the platform. The main platform is going to be a passenger carrying Running Line so, strictly speaking, the brakevan could not be left unattended in this position (which might suit the guard). Local interpretation of the Rule might be a little loose however - especially if the line fell toward the stops. Clearly, however, putting anything on the stops would inhibit any further activity in the platform - especially running round. We might expect therefore that it would very much tend to only occur where auto working or MUs were in use.

Assuming that there was a significant amount of shunting to be done so that detaching the brakevan made sense it would simply be put wherever it was most conveniently out of the way - both for dumping it and collecting it later. This position could change depending on what traffic was to be worked. The Brakevan's position could also be altered during shunting. A local shunter and almost always the crew would be familiar with the best arrangements.

At the end of a branch it would be more usual for the brakevan that came in on a train to go out on the same train's back-working. It would in fact usually be unusual to see more than one goods working (Particularly local traffic working) at one time at a dead-end branch. In fact it would be fairly unusual to see more than one local goods in a day. This would be modified by any specific workings such as a local quarry - or any of the other variations you might come up with... However! Branch termini were mostly relatively small and therefore there was not much room for two trains to play around at the same time - so this would seriously mitigate against more than one non-passenger train being there at any one time - except (possibly) when one arrived and another immediately left - but this would be relatively unusual due to the general need to keep out of the way of passenger traffic.

I think that covers it...

 

Thank you for the replies. I think I've got the idea now.

Robert

 

Glad you're happy with the brakevan

What about the rest of the train?

At the end of a branch it would seem that the only wagons that will need to get there would be the ones for loads to (or from) the end of the branch... (Some of the loads going out potentially needing empties to be brought in...)

This is the railway - so it can't be that simple can it?

Of course not!

There is always the possibility that there are Sidings in Section that can only be accessed one way round. In order to deal with these a train coming to the terminal might drop off empties by setting them back into the sidings as it comes down the branch and, at the same time, collect loads. Having done this the loads will be brought forward to the terminus, run round and then worked back up and out of the branch. this can happen for whole train loads (as with a quarry) or with odd wagons (possibly from a timber siding). the neat thing for a modeller with this traffic is that it can provide loads on flats or in opens that don't look silly if they come in and go out.

The significant thing then is where to put the train or wagons while in the terminus.

A whole train is usually more simple. It will need to be run-round before it can go back. There might, however, need to be a shuffle to allow either an auto-working/MU (which is more simple) or a loco hauled passenger train to both arrive and, probably, depart ahead of the freight train.

Part of a train is potentially more complicated. The wagons as well as the brakevan will tend to need to be disposed of out of the way while any other shunting - and any other traffic - is dealt with.

Another variation would be that if an adjacent station had or was expecting a flood of traffic to go out the empties needed for the movements might be worked passed it and to the terminus and held for a day or two until they were worked back when needed. Occasionally this sort of "putting aside ready" might occur with full loads - although these would tend to be van traffic unless the loads were of very low value or otherwise undesirable or difficult/impossible to pilfer. Again, for the modeller, this means that wagons can come and go without the load (or lack of load) changing. they can also be an interesting element of "stuff that gets in the way" of regular working. Empties or unbroken loads can also be shuffled around to get them out of the way (at least for the duration of shunting) in a way that does not apply to anything that is delivering or loading from the terminus but has not been fully secured.

I forgot to mention last time that, naturally, what is put where and when will always depend on the specific layout and traffic.

I also missed the point that at anything but a large location there would normally be only one loco shunting at any one time. Shunting might continue in a yard while a passenger loco ran round - but there would be care taken that anyone on the track (probably a guard or shunter) was well aware of any other movements - and, if/when these would be on an adjacent line movements might be completely stopped until the person was known to be clear. It takes less time and paperwork to wait than to not wait.

The reason that some shunting could go on - entirely within the non-Running Lines - of a yrad would be that these movements would be segregated from any passenger movement (including a run-round) by the Trap points at the exit/entrance from/to the yard to the Running Line. the Trap would also protect the shunting within the yard from the Activity out on the Running Line.

 

Incidentally - the GWR at least allocated some brake vans to branch line use at some periods - but not all the time. These had the name of the branch terminus painted on the side. I have no idea if anyone else did this.

 

This YouTube clip shows wagons being collected and delivered to the milk factory at Bailey Gate which was between Blandford and Broadstone on the S&D. The tanks were for milk that was dispatched, I think, to Acton, certainly the London area.

 

Nice video

The green flag held steady from the signalbox at about 3 minutes 30 is probably being used to tell the Driver that he has been accepted into the Block Section In Advance under Block Regulation 5 instead of the more normal Block Reg 4.

Basically this would tell him that the next Box's Station Limits were very busy so that he should approach with caution ready to stop Dead on the approach to the first Stop Signal.