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Can you help identify this loco or location.

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6.4K views 23 replies 11 participants last post by  Grifter_Guru  
#1 ·
I am trying to identify this accident from a card in my postcard collection.
Loco appears to be 0-6-0 type tender loco number 1186.
Postcard is probably c.1905 to 1910.
If I can determine which company the loco belonged to,
I can locate the date of the accident.
I think this may be north of England, but not sure.
Maybe someone can recognise the style of cab number plate.
Mickey B.

1186Accident by Mickey B, on Flickr
1186cab by Mickey B, on Flickr
 
#3 ·
Looking at that tender, I would agree on L&NWR....
 
#5 ·
LNWR number plates from 1873 were the familiar rectangular shape. This type of oval plate is more typical of the L&YR and 1186 was the number of a Class 11 0-6-0, built in 1893, and scrapped in 1957. However I don't know when the accident might have occurred, apart from pre-1923, and I suspect that a mere loco derailment with a couple of wagons off the rails won't have registered on the accident report files.
 
#7 ·
That would need pretty serious research to identify, unless someone was kiiled or left permanently injured. The modern day equivalent would be an artic suffering a burst tyre and then rolling over to some degree because the verge ground was very soft, or there was a concealed deep ditch, where the driver had attempted to pull off the carriageway.

The traditional steam railway was pretty casual about purely freight operation derailments. They happened all the time, and were cleared up swiftly, the main concern being to get operational again, and settle any owner insurance claims for losses to the freight. Here's Peter Townend on a freight collision at Hitchin in 1958: "A multiple mishap at Hitchin South, one of many such cleared up by the KX and New England breakdown cranes and men over the years ... usually such mishaps are cleared up by the following day".

That was two trains of down coal empties that collided and derailed, the wreckage then run into by an up fast freight hauled by V2 60885, and the resulting heap of wagons piling up then knocking over L1 67785 that just happened to be standing adjacent the incident on the up slow line, effectively completely obstructing the ECML until clearance operations had removed all the wreckage. Some 'mishap'! Look in 'Red for Danger': not a mention.
 
#8 ·
That note from 34C reminded me of my starting days on the railway when 4105, a GWR 2-6-2T ran through the Up platform at Bicester North to the end of the up loop and the derailed at the catch point and went twenty feet down the bank with its short train.

A few days later a beaten up loco appeared in the goods yard and then disappeared towards Banbury in the night.

Never a note of it anywhere, and no interruption to service.

A bit different to the early days of privatisation where an HST became derailed at Old Oak Common blocking the exit lines and they took three days to decide who was going to pay for the crane to come over from Willesden to re-rail it.
 
#9 ·
QUOTE (Mickey B @ 25 Apr 2016, 09:59) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I am trying to identify this accident from a card in my postcard collection.
Loco appears to be 0-6-0 type tender loco number 1186.
Postcard is probably c.1905 to 1910.
If I can determine which company the loco belonged to,
I can locate the date of the accident.
I think this may be north of England, but not sure.
Maybe someone can recognise the style of cab number plate.
Mickey B.

1186Accident by Mickey B, on Flickr
1186cab by Mickey B, on Flickr

Going from practical experience ( Two events of SUB units in the dirt through Trap Points... Was NOT me wot caused it!) the distance that loco and tender have gone down the bank suggests to me that John would be right about a run-away down a gradient - some speed involved to get it that far... Maybe the crew had jumped??? They'd certainly be glad that they were running tender first - otherwise (if the loco had gone down that far) they'd at least have had all the coal in the tender join them in the cab if not had the tender ride up on them. This would have resulted in a report... Very serious/horrific injuries... A broken leg or so from jumping would be far better than crushed and the risk of either a steam escape from a broken gauge glass or being trapped under coal that caught fire from the firebox... I've read some horrific reports. Bearing in mind the limitations of painkillers and antibiotics before the 1950s.

I would guess that in this case the train was turned into a refuge and slid through the Trap st the exit end and therefore went down the bank. This would mean that the train weight pushed the loco through - although the wagons in the view all look like empties... However; empties at the front pushed by a heavy load would have reduced the amount of braking that the fireman could achieve at the front end by dropping on the ballast and pinning down brakes as the wagons rolled by him. In a bad situation the Driver would also drop on the ballast and pin down all those he could reach.
Of course we would have to ask what the HSE would make of train crew hopping off moving trains to apply the brakes today - but it was common practice in the decades before loose coupled, unfitted trains ended.
There is a chance that this was caused or contributed to by the guard failing to get enough brakes pinned down at the back end of the train. As well as his van brake he would also have dropped to the ballast - gone forward and pinned down brakes - so long as he could keep up with the train and didn't fall over. Again this was entirely normal working. This, rather than the loco's inability to get up speed, was what kept the speed of loose-coupled, unfitted goods trains low.

There are pictures around of a train that slid through the Down Refuge at Gomshall (SECR/SR) with the result that the whole loco and tender were pushed up onto the Down Platform that was beyond the end of the Trap Point.... Contributing causes were that the train had come down the long drop of Deerleap Bank and wet rails... No brakes at all are of any use if a train "picks up" its wheels and aquaplanes. Another reason for going slowly. (I've ridden in the cab of a 3 car Western DMMU that aquaplaned for several miles - Nutfield Tunnel to just outside Redhill. We didn't stop for passengers at Nutfield! It was a good laxative approaching the junction).

On the other hand... When the SUBs pushed out of Dorking sidings against the signal (SPAD) and got tipped off toward the underbridge by the Traps they both only dropped the leading bogie off before the dirt brought them to a shuddering halt. The same thing can be seen on the GCR at Quorn when they put the tender in the dirt a couple of years ago. Yes, someone waking up and apply the continuous brake helped in both cases - but the main stopping force for a slow move through a Trap is the planet.

So... No idea where this was - but - as I've suggested - it was probably a right-direction runaway that went out the end of a refuge.

It would be unlikely that this would have been a derailment of a train running back down a gradient through a Safety Catch Point after either a break-away or failing up a bank... The loco would have to have been Assisting Iin Rear for a start. On the other hand - that would explain it coming off tender first.
A couple of other possibilities with Safety Catch Points...
1. The loco may have been working inside an Engineers Possession and someone failed to account for a Safety Catch Point. Problems of getting the lay of points wrong still occur in contemporary Possessions even without there being any (possily more than a tiny remnant) of Catch Points in the system. To try to prevent this they now use flashing blue lamps to protect any points within Possessions and within Engineering Supervisor's Work Sites.
2. The loco may have been fetching the wagons back from working a siding In Section - hence no Brakevan - but, in that case any Safety catch points would tend to be worked (using a slotted joint to allow the blades to normally spring open except when intentionally held shut). I think this option is unlikely.
3. Another unlikely option is that the loco was bringing back the tail of a divided train... Unlikely because there's no Brake Van between the loco and wagons.

Conclusion (supposition) - as said - this accident slid out the end of a Refuge.

I hope that while this waffle doesn't answer the actual quaetion - that it will give modellers some ideas about what could happen in real working.

:)
 
#11 ·
Allo Bear! Good to see you are in your usual verbose form...

Been sidetracked for sometime, so apologies for not being in touch. Only really getting back to MR again after an unintentional hiatus..
 
#13 ·
QUOTE (sarah @ 28 Apr 2016, 13:35) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There appears to be a Signal Box behind the Loco cab.

The wagon on top of wagon No.1226 seems to be a Private Owner wagon.

The bridge...is it over a road, or a Canal? Probably not another railway? The crowd would be unlikely alongside a working railway?

Quite probably somewhere near Wigan???
Well-spotted re the box (behind the loco cab) - would reinforce the possibility that this was a runoff through trap points at the end of a loop?
Bridge possibly a farm accommodation bridge which would allow easy access by those looking on?
Regards,
John Webb
 
#14 · (Edited by Moderator)
I've had a quick search through the railway archive site and came up with: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsumm...hp?eventID=8097.

This is described as being on the 24th of September 1912, near Town Green and Aughton, and was a "Runaway train portion, buffer stop collision" resulting in "Derailment and train fall from a height" - seems to be an apt summery of what we see in the picture! There is no known formal report on the incident.

The station is now known just as "Aughton" - a look at photos of the area on the Geograph website shows several railway bridges very like the one in the picture.

Regards,
John Webb
 
#16 ·
It is a L&Y tender loco, to a LNWR design. The L&Y had a few locos of LNWR design running on there lines. They bought in from other company's or bought the copy right to build them. And it is in the northwest Liverpool Preston Wigan areas, the wall where the people are you see all over this area, seen lots of walls like this around Liverpool that are still there today.
 
#17 ·
Whilst it is true the L&YR acquired locos to LNWR and GNR designs, the loco in question is definitely not one of them. The Ramsbottom 0-6-0s were an old design, with square cab sheets and antedeluvian tenders. 1186 was built in 1893, to Aspinall's design, the last of the Ramsbottoms went in 1903, and the accident was later than that. Its location has already been confidently identified as Aughton.
 
#18 ·
QUOTE (Nicholas Holliday @ 30 Apr 2016, 18:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Its location has already been confidently identified as Aughton.
May I say thank you to all who have contributed to this discussion.
But this [in my opinion] is not the Aughton area.
The rectangular bridge pier shown on the postcard is not the same type as those of existing stone bridges
in the Aughton and Town Green area.
Mickey B
 
#19 ·
Location now confirmed as :-
The end of the down loop opposite MIRFIELD No 5. Loco ran through stops.
Many thanks for confirmation from Tina at the LYRS archives.
It is known that at least three loco's came to grief here!
Loco built 1893-scrapped in 1957 as 52172
Mickey B
 
#22 ·
Maybe I am being a bit thick here, but where on the track diagram did this 'incident' occur?

I can not work it out for some reason?
 
#24 ·
Aaaah! Got it! Rotate the diag through 180 degrees and all becomes clear.

Thanks Nicholas
Image