Yes Manfred, appears to be a problem. Heljan are aware of it, from their site -

''11.04.2009
Class 17

HELJAN DK understands there may issues with some of the motors fitted to the new 'OO' class 17 models which have recently been released in the UK.

This is regrettable and HELJAN will be working on a solution to resolve any problems.

Please note however that the HELJAN factory is closed for Easter holidays until April 14th.

Tilbage''

I'll still get one and one way or another it will run ok when I'm finished with it.

Cheers, Keith

 

At least the model is being faithful to the prototype! A lot of them spent a good deal of their lives stored unserviceable with blown up engines. I was once shown some pistons from one - looked like aluminium porridge.

 

Yes I agree - the most realistic model to date, as unreliable as the prototype!!!

Heljan must be congratulated in managed to replicate unreliability......!!!

If you buy a Clayton the best place for it is at the back of the shed awaiting repair.........

Seriously though, its a nice looking model!

 

Good evening all, I'm new on here and I came looking for information on the Heljan Class 17's and potential faults. YES there is a problem with this loco I purchased one from Stockton Modellor on a pre-order months and months ago. When it arrived I went to run the loco in as per instructions . I was suprised how slow it was , but I put it down to a gearing issue , 3 mins after powering up the the loco slowed , stopped and started smoking , it was burnt out . I contact Stockton Modellor and Peter there said send it back and they would send out a replacement ( Thanks Peter ) , the new loco arrived the following day. I then contacted Stockton again to say I had recieved it and Peter said lets hope this one last longer than the other. This one lasted 2 mins before suffering the same fate . Now very angry contacted Peter again , he informed me to hold on to the loco and await a response from Heljan as this is happening all over the country , and they have had 5 returned so far. I am now in limbo awaiting instructions on what to do next . How can Heljan a company that makes such good models have got this so wrong , the person who ordered the motors for these models wants a good kick up the backside . So if you are thinking of buying one I would hold fire for a little while , and I agree that its nice to see a model working just like the real thing .

 

I would reiterate what Kaynitro says . As yet I've only been able to run mine once. It hasn't failed yet but it runs like a bag of spanners. It starts to move at about 50% power . Heljan suggest running it in 30 mins on half power- difficult as it takes half power to get it to move at all . At 80% power it crawls round my circuit. There is definitely something amiss - others suggest with the geartrain which places an undue strain on the motor causing the burn out.

Its a great looking loco- but frankly I would hold off until Heljans response is known . It needs to come soon. Another forum has closed down discussions because of negativity. But frankly if its a dog its a dog and needs exposure ,not to swept under the carpet. Heljan need to do something about this. In fairness to them they did something about their faulty Falcon. I just hope that experience, which must have cost them, doesn't colour their thinking on a recall on this model. If the theory is correct then it may be a complete chassis required.

With the instances of failure a recall needs to be forced if it is not forthcoming. Despite the moans and groans about the Bachmann/Farish 47 there wasn't a recall on that one- so we shouldn't let up on the pressure. This model isn't good enough, let alone for the £80 I paid.

For those not already committed , wait for the second batch and save yourself the hassle

Russell

 

Very sorry to hear about the problems that you are experiencing, I must admit I was very tempted the other night to order one as they seem to have sold out in a lot of shops. A friend of mine has one winging it way across the globe at the moment. It will be interesting to see what happens when he powers it up. If nothing else at least I will get a chance to look it over. It's been s long wait for this model, so waiting a little longer for the next batch will have to do. At least Heljan have acknowledged that there is a problem on their web site.

 

QUOTE (Manfred Ebinger @ 22 Apr 2009, 10:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Very sorry to hear about the problems that you are experiencing, I must admit I was very tempted the other night to order one as they seem to have sold out in a lot of shops. A friend of mine has one winging it way across the globe at the moment. It will be interesting to see what happens when he powers it up. If nothing else at least I will get a chance to look it over. It's been s long wait for this model, so waiting a little longer for the next batch will have to do. At least Heljan have acknowledged that there is a problem on their web site.

Hi Manfred,
I am in New South Wales, and I had mine delivered from a UK dealer, after pre-ordering since it was first announced. You guessed it, mine croaked after 5 mins of running (as per instructions). Now living in Australia, will cause a problem, as it will take morgaging the house to send it back to the UK. I have sent numerous emails to Heljan, asking just for a replacement motor etc, as I would fix it myself. I would suppose that a new batch of China-made replacements will have to be sourced now, before we can get satisfaction. The present motor is so small, Mashima/Canon motors are far too big to use as a replacement. Not a good look.

 

Oh Dear!! I have just received mine from Hattons, Although I have run it a while and strangely enough it did seem very slow ( I just thought it was a gearing thing as the real ones weren't that quick were they?)

Oh well just off to the shed to try running it again. It did run for a good 20 mins or so last time though!!

Kind regards

Paul

 

QUOTE I have sent numerous emails to Heljan, asking just for a replacement motor etc,

Just a word of warning Jumbo man. I understand the faults may not be the motors themselves but the fact that the gear train is very stiff. The motor burning out is a symptom not the root cause. Simply replacing the motor may just cause another motor to burn out . I wonder what Heljan are going to do about this - it looks like a full new chassis is required. I hope the ominous silence from Heljan after their initial announcement is them having talks with their Chinese suppliers to resolve the situation, rather than them hoping the problem will disappear if they brazen it out.

Russell

 

Cheers Russell,

My unit ran beautifully when first put on the track. It continued to roll with momentum after power cut off. No problem with revolving the drive shafts either. My theory is that it acting like some old US locos I have.......that the slots in the comutator are filled up with carbon. Maybe substandard quality brushes may be the culprit.....
Cheers

 

Thanks Jumbo man. Interesting what you've found with the comutator. Is your 17 smooth running? Mine is smooth in motion( as I said once power is applied at 50% it moves off) but there really is a terrible noise coming from it which sounds as if something is not quite meshing. Top speed is not brilliant and I think is some way less than the 60mph top speed of the prototype. I've only had a limited play but intend running it for longer periods of time this weekend. I'm not wishing it to fail , but if the theory is right and the motor overheats under load then I want to find out now rather than in a years time when its out of guarantee!

Still no word from Heljan

Russell

 

Sorry Russell, I may have misinformed you, as I am only guessing that it is dirty comutator slots, as mine acted the same as a US loco I have, and I found that to be the problem on it. With the 17, the motor is a sealed unit, unlike the American Athearn one I had trouble with. My 17 has "carked" it good and proper, and will not run at all. To add insult to injury, I got my credit card statement in the mail today, with the cost of the 17 on it !!!!!

"Not happy Joyce"

 

On the RM Web forum , the problem seems to have been definitely identified as a bearing that is too tight. Reaming out the bearing solves the motor burnout problem. Apparently they're still rather noisy after the modification, but run at the sort of speed you would expect and don't go up in smoke. I was going to buy a couple, but I'm going to hang on for a later release now, hopefully they will be delivered in a useable condition straight out of the box.

 

QUOTE (Baby GM @ 24 Apr 2009, 10:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>On the RM Web forum , the problem seems to have been definitely identified as a bearing that is too tight. Reaming out the bearing solves the motor burnout problem. Apparently they're still rather noisy after the modification, but run at the sort of speed you would expect and don't go up in smoke. I was going to buy a couple, but I'm going to hang on for a later release now, hopefully they will be delivered in a useable condition straight out of the box.

If that is correct - then there has to be a recall. It is not reasonable to expect people to file down bearings to get the model to run, plus you will invalidate any warranty. I'm a little disturbed to see this subject going off the boil slightly as I think there will be a tendency for Heljan to think they can do nothing. I read the review in Model Rail and it was refreshingly honest. I would quibble that the model still scored 74%. I appreciate that it looks good , but if it can't carry out its prime function of moving satisfactorily then in my view they should have failed to score it. However they do say they are awaiting the replacement to see if its any better and will feed back next month. I suspect the replacement won't be any better (unless its been tweaked by Heljan) >By then they will have had feedback from modellers on the burnt out motor issue, which in fairness they probably didn't have at time of review, or at least the seriousness of the situation may not have been apparent. So next months edition will be interesting. I hope they take up the consumers cause. Lets also see what the other periodicals say.

At the end of the day with a National debt of £170 billion , people losing their jobs , this is a small matter and you have to keep it in perspective. But I just don't like the idea of people manufacturing defective goods and "getting away with it". And if you are in Australia or wherever its not just as easy as changing it for a good one (on the assumption that a good one does exist)

Russell

 

I'm afraid I do not agree with the tight bearing theory on mine, for it ran like a dream (when it did run), as it coasted to a halt after the juice was shut off. I have manually turned the flywheel by fingers, and feel no stiffness in the drive train......
And I don't feel like trusting the postal system a second time to mail mine back to the UK.....

 

There is no rule which says that a product may only have one problem. From what I have read there are reports of: a motor design barely fit for the job, (even when it runs well the current draw is typically high, and it gets warmer than the norm for small motors); many early life failures of motor windings (I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be a problem with the wire, either impure copper and/or undergauge and/or inadequate lacquer application); and tight fits of worm shaft bearings (poor control of machining tolerances). So the product then becomes a lottery in terms of what the end customer gets, and one man's 'here's how I fixed mine' is not universally applicable.

When process control starts to slip in a manufacturing outfit, it quickly becomes universal. The reason is simple: this is a managment responsibility. When manager Jones starts cutting corners in his department and reporting improving yield or throughput, or reduced unit cost; managers Green, Smith, Brown, are not to be outdone (after all their promotions depend on performance) and make similar moves in their departments. Typically what the leader of this development does is 'eat' much or all of the tolerance built into the design to allow for normal variation in production, so quality loss in the end product is not immediately perceived. But when the followers all similarly attempt to 'eat' the same tolerance, the end product quality suddenly degrades. Welcome to the wonderful world of production quality assurance. For those interested read any book by my hero, W Edwards Deming.

 

QUOTE Welcome to the wonderful world of production quality assurance Sadly lacking me thinks! Thanks 34C there may actually be more than one thing wrong. I thought I read somewhere that these models were made in a different factory than usual. There is certainly a world of difference between this model that runs like a pile of junk and the superb running 27s and 47s in my collection.

However I can't subscribe to a series of unfortunate flaws - because if you do there may be no recall (its just an unfortunate occurence!). I noted all the incidences of failure in MREmag and was referred to the thread on RMweb - both , and the fact that the Model Rail reviewed machine could only achieve a crawl, suggests that there is something fundamentally wrong with this model.

Are there no electrical regulations being contravened here- something that results in a burnt out motor surely must be considered unsafe?

Still no word from Heljan

Russell

 

*** This looks far more like cockup than cost cutting - still a fault of Heljan management and product planning, but given the not at all bad performance of most of their loco's its certainly not typical. Both H and B have had similar problems - Bachmann had the same with their PRR K4 pacific and one of their LNER pacifics a year or two ago, hornby have had several - PCBs that destroy decoders because of circuit errors, wrong sideframes, loco's with no grip because of design errors not noticed etc...

In each case, the Mfr has always fixed it as soon as they could....

It takes usually several weeks to properly identify the cause, cook up a reasonable and acceptable remedy / procedure to look after customers that can be applied efficiently, announce and implement it... I'd suspect that by mid next month, there will be some clarity and action on this subject from Heljan..

Richard

 

And Heljan's investigation of causes is underway: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=42861

 

Hi All

I have just spoke to Hattons (where I bought mine from) about my Clayton and they say that Heljan do know about problems with the loco and are advising retailers to ask their customers to be patient and keep hold of their loco's until they find a remedy. Hattons did also tell me that if I did want to send it back for a refund then that is no problem either.

Kind regards

Paul

 

Thanks for update Madon37

Ran mine for about 2 hours yesterday. Its still very slow (scale 50mph?) and grinds along the layout. Starting position on controller still 50% power . Ran it at 80% (crawl) and up to 100%. Had various stop/starts and have not caused the motor to go pop. In fairness it is quite smooth in operation but is very noisy indeed. Top speed very low. It will do for shunting. I have gaugemaster DS controllers which have simulated inertia, however I am frigtened to use this function, as motor can be heard humming long before loco starts.

Waiting for Heljan response

Russell

 

Hi Russell,

My experience is similar to yours - ran the loco on a rolling track for an hour in both directions at varying speeds with no dramas re motor, but when I put the loco on the track it ran very slowly and was very noisy compared to all the other Heljan models I own. It also made more noise running in one direction compared to the other. Very smooth at very slow speeds (scale walking pace) but hits top speed with the throttle half open and increasing the throttle to full appears to make no difference in speed ( having read about the problems with the motor I have only tested full throttle once and for a very short time).

Have put the loco "on shed" ( back in the box) pending some news from Heljan

Dave

 

Hiya,

Top speed on the clayton was only 60 Mph and that was pushing it apparantly.....!!! so they got something right !!

Nikki

 

Hi Dave,
Maybe we can get a bulk postage deal from Australia Post to ship them all back to the UK !
Cheers
Ray

 

QUOTE (gdaysydney @ 27 Apr 2009, 22:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>.. Have put the loco "on shed" ( back in the box) pending some news from Heljan ..
Dave,

Have you reported the problem to your retailer? Heljan have asked everyone with an unsatisfactory loco to do this, so they can accurately assess the scale of the problems.