Hi, I have used a number of different systems over the years, and before that I was DC using good old H&M controllers. Although I currently mainly use Z21 for driving trains and changing points (because you can use any old tablets or phones as controllers), I have always said that the easiest system to just pick up and use without any previous DCC experience is the Prodigy.
It is the most intuitive and simple to use and can be expanded easily either by adding extra handsets or by getting the WiFi adapter and using a phone or tablet. I still use it for all my chip programming because it is the simplest and quickest to program with compared to any other system I have used (Z21, Lenz, Digitrax, NCE, Bachmann Dynamis, Hornby Elite, ESU etc).
I know you said you don't much like a remote style unit, I used to think that way at first, but if you have a handset for each main track or circuit you can put them in holders so they are in a fixed position. These handsets feature speed control knobs like old style controllers. The beauty of it of course is that by just inputting the loco number and pressing enter on the controller, you are now controlling another loco anywhere on the layout. In the past I have handed the control of my exhibition layout to complete DCC newbies and within moments they have picked up the basics of acquiring a train and running it. It even tells you how to do it on the back of the handset!
Hope this is useful
Regards
Tim

 

Thanks Tim, I'll take a closer look at the Prodigy, I assume you could have two handsets controlling two loco's (1 each) on the same track?

 

Yes, certainly. Each controller/handset can have a stack of locos in the memory as well so you can flick from one to another in a moment regardless of where they are on track.

 

Consider it list:

Roco Z21 (the black one, capital Z), because it works with lots of handsets, from a lot of vendors. Lots of flexibility in how sound locos are controlled.

ESU ECoS. Expensive, but very nice to use. May be overkill. Lots of flexibility in how sound locos are controlled.


Digitrax Zephyr DCS52. Long lived design, with regular updates. Nearest to the "knob" control you say you like. BUT its not as flexible with sound locos as the European designed systems.



Slightly long shot today, but may be the up-coming new entry system:
TCS's new entry level system. Looks like it may be everything the PowerCab was 20 years ago, but updated for modern abilities. And looks like it has European style flexibility in how functions are controlled (for sound locos). But, a little too soon to be sure as it only came out a month or so ago.


Even longer shot:
yamorc.de. The designer of the Digikeijs system starts again with a new range.
Digikeijs system is good, arguably almost a Z21 for half the price. Slightly techy mindset needed to set it up, but its very capable, and takes a huge variety of handsets


With any of the above, you can either have multiple handsets (one per active loco), or have several locos under a single handset's control and swap between them. Which works depends on how your layout is arranged and what is being controlled.




Maybe list, but I'd leave it on the shelf:
NCE PowerCab. I'm probably unpopular saying this, but its long in the tooth, and its limitations are becoming seriously apparent with more recent sound locos, their use of active brakes, and the need to have different function key behaviours.


Avoid list:
Hornby,
Gaugemaster (their DCC Prodigy is rebadge MRC system from the US which is a long way from the best, its expensive, underfeatured, and expansion options extremely limited, years since it was last updated),
Bachmann...

Lenz. Extremely well made, but very expensive for what it is, and becoming dated. But the big worry is support in the UK becoming a bit questionable with their importer being unsure about sending things back to Germany for repair.




- Nigel

 

Consider it list:

Roco Z21 (the black one, capital Z), because it works with lots of handsets, from a lot of vendors. Lots of flexibility in how sound locos are controlled.

ESU ECoS. Expensive, but very nice to use. May be overkill. Lots of flexibility in how sound locos are controlled.


Digitrax Zephyr DCS52. Long lived design, with regular updates. Nearest to the "knob" control you say you like. BUT its not as flexible with sound locos as the European designed systems.



Slightly long shot today, but may be the up-coming new entry system:
TCS's new entry level system. Looks like it may be everything the PowerCab was 20 years ago, but updated for modern abilities. And looks like it has European style flexibility in how functions are controlled (for sound locos). But, a little too soon to be sure as it only came out a month or so ago.


Even longer shot:
yamorc.de. The designer of the Digikeijs system starts again with a new range.
Digikeijs system is good, arguably almost a Z21 for half the price. Slightly techy mindset needed to set it up, but its very capable, and takes a huge variety of handsets


With any of the above, you can either have multiple handsets (one per active loco), or have several locos under a single handset's control and swap between them. Which works depends on how your layout is arranged and what is being controlled.




Maybe list, but I'd leave it on the shelf:
NCE PowerCab. I'm probably unpopular saying this, but its long in the tooth, and its limitations are becoming seriously apparent with more recent sound locos, their use of active brakes, and the need to have different function key behaviours.


Avoid list:
Hornby,
Gaugemaster (their DCC Prodigy is rebadge MRC system from the US which is a long way from the best, its expensive, underfeatured, and expansion options extremely limited, years since it was last updated),
Bachmann...

Lenz. Extremely well made, but very expensive for what it is, and becoming dated. But the big worry is support in the UK becoming a bit questionable with their importer being unsure about sending things back to Germany for repair.
The Z21 is great for operation but more difficult to program point control and set up loco cv's
than with the Prodigy.
Regards
Tim




- Nigel

Hi, the Prodigy MRC system is robust and easiest to use, works with every make of sound chip whether European or American, and can be used with mobile phones and tablets with the free engine driver app. It does most of what any top end system does.

 

I use the Z21 (black) unit, with Roco multiMAUS hand controllers (throttles), although mine are the Fleischmann versions as I've had them a while. You can control several locos at a time from one handset by switching back and forth between them, if you only intend to run 2 locos, that's not a issue as you would probably have them registered next to each other, but you can plug 2 handsets directly into the Z21 to give individual control or have 2 people controlling different locos. You can also switch points etc with the handsets too. I know you said you're not bothered with PC control but that may be something you get into in the future, the Z21 can be connected to a PC for use with automatic train control software. It can also be linked to iPad's and iPhone's via the Z21 app and you can control everything with them too. Overall a very versatile and futureproof system.
Regards
Alan

 

I use the original mono ESU system on my loft layout. I think I got it in 2007 and it's still going. The current model is colour - nice to have but no essential and 6A though my 4A model doesn't seem to run out of power except for servos at start up but that's a different story... The ESU remote control has been a big disappointment.

On my shelf layout in the study - my COVID lock down project - I got the Roco Black 'Z21' rather than haul the ECoS up and down the loft ladder. I haven't gone beyond using my phone (Samsung Galaxy) as the controller as it works well enough. I plan to get the basic Apple iPad for point and signal control. I was hoping for a domestic 'cast off' but the only way available is 32 bit which is too old to run the software. The current iPad Pro just keeps going... There is a wide range of accessories available for the Z21. I am thinking of getting the WiFi handheld controller with knob as a 'safer' controller for small hands.

I haven't tried programming anything with the Z21 as the ECoS is so easy to use for that.

It's hard to beat the Z21 in my view.

David

 

...the physical controller is the most important thing for actually controlling the trains...

You want some 'hands on' to assess this. As with any control layout, what 'falls under your hand' most naturally is the item you want. There are specialist dealers dotted around the UK that can offer this: if you happen to be in East Anglia I would recommend Coastal DCC in Ipswich without reservation.

And a question. Do you want to drive, or do you want to let the system do the driving by setting a speed step and allowing the decoder to smoothly change the speed in response to pre-set inertia values? Simple fact: the system drives far better than human beings in replicating the inertia of heavy vehicles with low rolling friction. I expect to once again be disappointed when exhibitions resume, by the clunky humans driving on layouts with DCC control, where the system could do a far superior job.

 

Thank you all for the comments, you have given me a lot to think about as a few mentioned the Z21 I already took a brief look at this and this looks like a nice system with plenty of options of how to control (app, handset etc.). The app on this actually looks quite nice, not like some others I have seen. I agree that my needs will probably change overtime so something like this would give me options for the future.

 

If you are working to a budget then have a look at the Signatrack Ace-3.

If you mean what you say about future proofing then definitely the Roco Z21 (black) with maybe a couple of Multimaus wireless controllers. Using the Z21 with a tablet will make cv programming simple and will provide you with a great schematic mimic screen for controlling points and accessories. If you initially don't like controlling trains from the touch screen then the Multimaus will give you a knob to drive the train and don't underestimate how useful it is to be wireless.

 

and don't underestimate how useful it is to be wireless.

Yeah, I have several plug in multiMAUS handsets, but I wouldn't be without my wireless version. Great for when I need to go round the back of the loft to deal with an issue like a de-rail (thankfully not that often), but means I can get the loco up and running from wherever the problem may be
Alan

 

As another NCE user, the above, about the F 10+ functions / sound functions, doesn't make for particularly comforting reading...

That said, pressing 2 buttons for 10+ values {ie. Holding Shift + 0 > 4, isn't that much different than 1 > 4}. At least the NCE can be used for much by touch, whilst watching whatever is happening, like acceleration, slowing, stopping, cover accessory buttons until wanted, then press at the right moment, shunting, points, turntable etc... I'm not sure I would feel quite the same, personally, about a throttle / buttons on a flat screen... umm. That's much about my own hands on preferences, not the systems behind it. I'm assuming that those recommending Z21s etc don't have that reservation / experience, or it would have been mentioned.

J
PS. I did make the mistake of getting a Hornby Elite to upgrade on the Select - which came with a starter set. I should have listened to those who knew much more than I and gone for something better, rather than inserting an expensive additional step up the ladder.

 

...... I'm not sure I would feel quite the same, personally, about a throttle / buttons on a flat screen... umm. That's much about my own hands on preferences, not the systems behind it. I'm assuming that those recommending Z21s etc don't have that reservation / experience, or it would have been mentioned.

It's not mentioned because throttle choice is (almost) anything you like with the Z21.

The Z21 works with (incomplete list): Roco Multimaus handset (multiple versions), every Lenz handset, every Digitrax handset (including Zephyr systems as a "handset"), most Uhlenbrock handsets, old ZTC systems/throttles. It also works with an iPhone or Android phone/tablet, and/or a computer control system.

There's a reasonable chance it will work with an NCE system via the "sniffer" port.


All of the above, all at the same time if you've friends each bringing their own preferred option.



- Nigel

 

I too use the black Z21 because all the graphics are handled by an ipad, I found this better than an android type and have over 200 locos on the ipad but I could do with a bigger hard drive to hold a few more so I would need about 20GHz instead of 13 I have now, that said not many have over 200 locos, I can and do run up to 10 on the system concurrently. I started using this to control points and its great when you have 5 or 6 but I have 28 in the main fiddle yard alone and over 100 so it gets expensive for the hardware it is also a bit slow to constantly switch screens so I went to Peco touch studs for point control and am happy with that and just use Z21 for loco control and the 2 Dapol track cleaners. Again really I could do with 4 of them to control 8 at a time!

Generally Z21 is a decent price as the graphics are elsewhere, with your size layout any old ipad/android pad would do just fine and as above in effect it is future proofed but truthfully what you have planned anything would do, question is - is this a starter layout or the beginnings of something big, if the later go Z21 because it will cope, I have a tutorial on here somewhere anyway you pays your money and takes your choice!

My Z21 station, do not be put off they are yellow and brown for DC tramway layout
You have basically 3 plugs one for Z21, one for the router and one for the ipad as you see here.

 

I'm also another NCE (Power Pro) user. Previously used a Lenz 100 system and this now runs the workbench test track layout. Also have a Hornby Elite.

Technically, the Lenz system is a solid and reliable system but it is now very dated, particularly with its throttles. The LH90 is equivalent to a TV remote of the 1980's where the cost of buttons was a premium so each button had multiple 'modes'. Completely unusable user-interface and obviously designed by an electronics engineer on the premise that if it works, it is good enough. The LH101 throttle was a lot better but it still suffered the 'multimode button' issue. It would have been a lot better if it had a rotary throttle of some type - I believe it now does, but that is some 15 years too late for me!
I wanted to go wireless. Before they started making their own DCC systems, ESU used to make wireless throttles and I was proposing to use them with my Lenz but alas, they were already no longer available. Lenz themselves had some rediculous system where you could use a DECT phone as a model railway throttle! Who in their right mind even thought this was viable ??
It was the lack of wireless that led me to look elsewhere.

The NCE system is a whole lot better. Again, solid and reliable. Much more of a 'designed' system (with much less technical debt) with multiple components that just plug together and work, unlike the 'bitty' nature of Lenz.
The throttles captured me in two ways: firstly, the user interface was by far the best at the time and secondly, they could be wireless via proper radio and not some concocted infra-red nonsense like other manufacturers were using. I don't believe the NCE radio throttles are legally compliant in the UK (someone correct me) as I've never heard of people using them there, but here in Australia, they are legal. I have three and they are well worth the money. If you want to use them 'tethered' all you have to do is plug a cable in and they automatically switch over from being battery/radio to tethered wire linked. So if you run out of battery, they can be used as ordinary tethered throttles.

If you are even thinking of walking around with a throttle, go for a system which supports a proper radio system, not a 'DC-console' type system.

Since I was in the market for a DCC system, several other systems have become available which offer variations on user interfaces (screen for ESU Ecos) and mobile phone/bluetooth connectivity.
Under the hood, most of them don't seem to have progressed much: they are still based around a DCC signal generator and booster (NMRA standards), just providing different options for how a user interfaces with it.
Advice already given here about trying different systems, including tactility is worth taking.

 

I currently use an ECoS with the hand controller and am very happy with both. It is an expensive option but worth it in my view.

When I had my model shop, I specialised in DCC and sold ZTC (shows my age), Bachman Dynamic, Gaugemaster Prodigy. Since then I have had two Digitrax systems and NCE. Looking back at them all, the ones that I was happiest with were the ZTC and Digitrax Zephyr. The Prodigy/Digitrax/NCE hand sets to me are too complicated.

My advice would be if budget stressed then a Digitrax Zephyr or if budget no constraint go with ECoS.

I would suggest ZTC still but I have no knowledge of the latest iteration from Taunton Controls. It has great look and feel though.

 

I would suggest ZTC still but I have no knowledge of the latest iteration from Taunton Controls. It has great look and feel though.

Been very quiet in recent years. Looked up their website, and found the 'latest news'; the last date is rather telling.

Latest News – Taunton Controls Ltd

tauntoncontrolsltd.co.uk

 

I was new to DCC last year and didn't have a clue.
I wanted something with rotary controls, so I opted for a Digitrax Evox Evolution Express set as it has 2 control knobs.
I've become fairly used to it and have even used it to set the quartering chuffs on a couple of my new steam loco's.

 

I liked ZTC decoders but then it changed hands and I thought it would get better but it sort of went to sleep

On decoders DCC concepts for 8 pins as they fit everything, the nano type
For 21 pin either Bachman or DCCC again both good
As for warranty DCCC will provide as Richard Johnson is on here, less active than before but still breathing
and for 4 pin, 6 pin, next 18 etc - whatever you can get

 

@Graham Plowman I am talking about locos with more than 28 functions. This is already a thing with ESU decoders (I own an ESU-equipped model that maps to F30) and some of the newer, more detailed locos have a lot of both sound and other functions (smoke, cab and machine room lights, moving pantographs etc). A lot of older physical cabs will probably never be able to support that even with the banking of functions they already do, because they'd need a software update. I don't see e.g. NCE doing that with hardware that was last updated 15 years ago.

 

I wonder how much money there is the DCC Systems market given Lenz and ESU are growing their business by making models at the higher end of the price range. If they are the smart ones, that doesn't leave much money or incentive for other control manufacturers to invest in newer fancier systems.

If Hornby have a good reliable Bluetooth implementation I think they're on to a winner so long as they don't try to replicate all the accessory decoder stuff already available from many others.

David

 

I wonder how much money there is the DCC Systems market given Lenz and ESU are growing their business by making models at the higher end of the price range. If they are the smart ones, that doesn't leave much money or incentive for other control manufacturers to invest in newer fancier systems...

I feel this is the obstacle to the development of a successor control system, because to win over the market it has to offer some massive superiority over DCC at a price attractive enough for the potential market.

Personally, with DCC decoders installed in the best part of 100 traction items, I wouldn't even consider a system that didn't offer full backward compatability, because what I have works reliably and is able to meet all my operational requirements. I am far from averse to spending on upgrades, but it has to be the full package...

 

Good points made by everyone here.

In terms of 'standards', my observation is that with a few exceptions, the majority of new 'standards' tend to to be single solution to single problem setups. For example, they might solve how to drive trains (perhaps wirelessly) but then they don't integrate or offer a solution to changing turnouts. Or they focus on doing some other feature with a deliberate exclusion of a computer. Or they focus on trying to bring DCC capabilities to DC.
This is where DCC has excelled in a big way: the use of a single network bus has enabled it to solve multiple problems and that is what all future solutions should be doing. Coming from a very analytical, software engineering background where we have to deal with large numbers on concurrent issues, I don't think this is hard. It just needs people to think in ways of bringing things together in compatible ways so that they all work together instead of people focussing on single issues or creating hardware vs software 'them and us' scenarios. Why have mobile phones become so successful ? Because this process has been applied to them and everyone has been brought together.

34C raises an interesting point about 'addressing'. I haven't worked with bluetooth, but I have developed software to drive numerous other hardware systems (including industrial and DCC), all with their own 'addressing' systems. 34C suggested a single address for a layout. That would effectively be a 'network address' to which all devices could be confined and secured. How are individual devices (like locos and accessories) addressed within that ? Theoretically, that is possible within the messaging system. Does bluetooth work on the principal of a network address with multiple devices within the network ? I don't know - perhaps someone more knowledgeable than myself on this can advise ? I always though my phone/car bluetooth connection was a single address, single network, but maybe I am wrong. If bluetooth does operate with a sub-addressing system, then that does create huge opportunities, especially for address ranges.

DWB asked about the every increasing high end prices of DCC systems. In the case of Lenz, I would suggest that is probably not justified as the Lenz system is not a high-end system any more. It is a good, solid, reliable system, but it is very dated now. In the case of ESU, I think it is possibly justified because their system is very innovative and they continue to develop it. I think in time, all DCC systems will go this way with a *nix based computer running inside with a display which may also appear on throttles.
Rising prices could also be symptomatic of compensating for lower sales and as DWB says (but my words), milking the products for as long as they can.

Other 'Dave' indicated the way digital systems change the standards. Set top boxes originated to transition from analogue TV signals to digital signals. DAB is effectively the same to FM radio.
From what I can see, Hornby's bluetooth foray is very similar to some suggestions I sent to SK a couple of years ago, particularly the ways of integrating it with current tech and migrating the current tech to the new tech. It will be interesting to see how it progresses.